High Demand Pool with Spa and stream

[runboy]

Not just getting started, but my first experience with a somewhat high maintenance pool.

My Pool consists of a fairly large Spa overflowing into the pool via a stream/waterfalls. The pool is not much bigger than the spa. The entire setup is 11K Gallons. So a fairly large surface area and when ever we use the hot tub, a significant portion of the entire water mass is heated. I live in AZ, so we don't heat it right now, but when we moved here a couple of months ago the kids thought it was fun, but it quickly became an algae nightmare and the previous owner hadn't changed the water in probably 6 years, so it was super hard and unmanageable, so I had to empty and Chlorine wash it.
I have a variable speed pump for filtration/cleaning and run it 3 hours during the night for cleaning 2900RPM/70GPM and during the day I run it low speed 8 hours 1400 RPM/30GPM for filtration and to have the stream going.

I have it under control at the moment, but wanted to hear if anybody has recommendations as to how to manage a pool like that. My biggest problem at the moment is Bird control. They think it's the best bird bath in the State. Hanging foil and using Owls has helped with some of the birds, but not all.

 

[Jimrahbe]

rb,

Other than the increase in pH due to your constant waterfall, I don't any difference between your pool and any other pool and spa..

The key to not getting algae is just maintaining your FC to CYA ratio... See this chart. [FC/CYA][/FC/CYA]

I suspect that the reason that your pool turned green before was simply that your CYA was way over 100 ppm and you were trying to keep the FC between 1 and 3 ppm. Doing that means that you might as well just put a big sign in your front yard saying "Algae Party This Weekend..."

Please look over our Pool School info and see what we are all about... Pool School - Pool School

Very nice look setup and view you have!!! My view is the side of my neighbor's house...

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Spa Owner]

A few questions...

Why are you calling this pool high demand? Do you mean a lot of kids using it or do you mean it seems to demand a lot of attention or a lot of chemical or something else?

Does the spa circulate with the pool or do you divert water with valves from pool to spa?

Is 11K full volume of everything?

 

[Spa Owner]

I have a variable speed pump for filtration/cleaning and run it 3 hours during the night for cleaning 2900RPM/70GPM and during the day I run it low speed 8 hours 1400 RPM/30GPM for filtration and to have the stream going.

Was just doodling the pool math and noticed the pump speed to flow rates don't look correct. Where did these flow rates come from? The manufacturers data doesn't align.

Can you please go out to your filter plant and run the pump at slow speed and tell us the pressure on the gauge on the filter, and then run at the higher speed and tell us the pressure?

 

[Dirk]

What a unique yard, pool, spa and view. Really special. Start studying Pool School and you'll have your pool care down in short order. There's nothing special about your pool in that regard. Use the info here at TFP and it'll be a breeze. It really is very easy if you follow the TFP guidelines. And if you get a little lost, just ask a question here, you'll get near-instant help.

Regarding the birds: another here suggested using strands of SpiderWire (ultra thin fishing line). I don't think the brand was the thing, just happened to be what he used. It's the near invisible line that is key. Not enough for birds to identify and then sit on, but rather something strange that interrupts there desire to hang out in and around your yards. Sorry, it's wasn't made clear what pattern to use or how many strands, so you might have to experiment. But start with the big tree and just run it around-about your yard. Maybe from tree to fence, if that fence is tall enough. Or maybe you'll have to erect a few light poles of something to get enough height to walk under. You get the idea. It shouldn't impact your view to any great degree, as it should be near invisible to you, too.

I haven't tried this myself, but you might give it a go...

 

[Jimrahbe]

so,

What are you trying to determine? Flow rate has very little to do with Algae? I run my pool at 1200 rpm and my filter pressure is less than 2 lbs.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[runboy]

rb,


Other than the increase in pH due to your constant waterfall, I don't any difference between your pool and any other pool and spa..


The key to not getting algae is just maintaining your FC to CYA ratio... See this chart. [FC/CYA][/FC/CYA]


I suspect that the reason that your pool turned green before was simply that your CYA was way over 100 ppm and you were trying to keep the FC between 1 and 3 ppm. Doing that means that you might as well just put a big sign in your front yard saying "Algae Party This Weekend..."


Please look over our Pool School info and see what we are all about... Pool School - Pool School


Very nice look setup and view you have!!! My view is the side of my neighbor's house...


Thanks,


Jim R.

Hi Jim,

Thanks. Yes, you are probably right. My old pool was just a pretty basic 14K gallon pool. I just put 2 tabs in two floaters every week in the summer and a little less in the winter, changed the water every 3 years due to the increase in CYA and Harness and everything was good

A few questions...


Why are you calling this pool high demand? Do you mean a lot of kids using it or do you mean it seems to demand a lot of attention or a lot of chemical or something else?


Does the spa circulate with the pool or do you divert water with valves from pool to spa?


Is 11K full volume of everything?

What I really meant was High Maintenance Lots more cleaning required compared to my old Pool.

Normal flow is water sucked from the Pool to whatever In Floor Cleaning PopUps are delivering (Pool and Spa). I divert a little bit of water to the waterfall on top of the Spa to make sure there is a flow of water in the stream even when the water from the pool is going to popups in the pool.
I can isolate both pool and spa and I have additional pumps leading water to the top of the stream if I want to isolate the spa, but still have water flowing.
Yes, 11K is the entire setup. The pool is not very big. The Spa fits 8 comfortably.

Was just doodling the pool math and noticed the pump speed to flow rates don't look correct. Where did these flow rates come from? The manufacturers data doesn't align.


Can you please go out to your filter plant and run the pump at slow speed and tell us the pressure on the gauge on the filter, and then run at the higher speed and tell us the pressure?

The numbers come from whoever installed the variable speed pump (Previous Owner). They measured the following:
Filtration 1400 RPM 30 GPM 1.1A Vacuum 1 (Hg) Press 5 psi 13.8 Total Dynamic Head
Cleaning 2900 RPM 70 GPM 4.8A Vacuum 8 (Hg) Press 30 psi 72.5 Total Dynamic Head

What a unique yard, pool, spa and view. Really special. Start studying Pool School and you'll have your pool care down in short order. There's nothing special about your pool in that regard. Use the info here at TFP and it'll be a breeze. It really is very easy if you follow the TFP guidelines. And if you get a little lost, just ask a question here, you'll get near-instant help.


Regarding the birds: another here suggested using strands of SpiderWire (ultra thin fishing line). I don't think the brand was the thing, just happened to be what he used. It's the near invisible line that is key. Not enough for birds to identify and then sit on, but rather something strange that interrupts there desire to hang out in and around your yards. Sorry, it's wasn't made clear what pattern to use or how many strands, so you might have to experiment. But start with the big tree and just run it around-about your yard. Maybe from tree to fence, if that fence is tall enough. Or maybe you'll have to erect a few light poles of something to get enough height to walk under. You get the idea. It shouldn't impact your view to any great degree, as it should be near invisible to you, too.


I haven't tried this myself, but you might give it a go...

Interesting. Yes, I will have to try that. The Reflective Scare Tape (Foil) has been pretty effective against most of the birds except for the Crows.

 

[Spa Owner]

The numbers come from whoever installed the variable speed pump (Previous Owner). They measured the following:
Filtration 1400 RPM 30 GPM 1.1A Vacuum 1 (Hg) Press 5 psi 13.8 Total Dynamic Head
Cleaning 2900 RPM 70 GPM 4.8A Vacuum 8 (Hg) Press 30 psi 72.5 Total Dynamic Head

Well that's interesting...

I work in metric, so I have had to convert to metric and then convert to feet of water as the manufacturers curve is in feet.
Post conversion I get a TDH of 12.7 feet and 78.26 feet.

Marking up manufacturers curve it suggests the pump is dead head at 2900rpm, and I am assuming the pump manufacturers curve is correct. If this is correct then little if any water is being pushed out at this speed. This wont help very much. It may be there is something else I cant see from here. But it does raise a question is the pool/spa clearly got water movement at the high speed? Do the pop ups work only on the high speed, this may be twisting the data?

On the plus side the 1400 rpm speed looks like it is closer to 50 usgpm than 30.

 

[runboy]

SO,

There is really good flow at 2900 RPM, so the pump is definitely not in a deadhead.

But I checked your numbers and you are correct. Something is definitely messed up with the installers numbers. How he came up with those is a mystery to me.

my Filter pressure right now is at 22psi when running the pump at 2900 and that is a filter that probably hasn’t had a good cleaning in a long time. I have only backwashed it, but need to take it apart for a good cleaning.
I can only speculate that maybe he took his readings at max pump speed and then ended up writing 2900 since that is what he ended up setting the speed to for cleaning. That would explain the 30 psi.
I will try and see if I can locate the guy who installed it and see if he can explain his numbers.

Water is still going through the pop ups at low speed, but they are not that effective at cleaning. I would imagine the TDH changes significantly depending on what pop ups are in use. The spa is above pump level and the pool below.

 

[jblizzle]

Don't get hung up on the flow rates. They really do not matter.

If you want to keep the pool clear and clean, you just need to maintain the proper FC level which depends on your CYA level, see the [FC/CYA][/FC/CYA].
That is it, simple as that.

What test kit are you using?
How are you adding chlorine to the pool daily?

 

[jblizzle]

Turnovers do not matter. Running the pump more or less at higher or lower speeds is not going to keep the water clear.
That is the job of the chlorine.

We have members that run their pools for 2 hours a day ... WAY less than 1 turnover without issues.

 

[runboy]

Don't get hung up on the flow rates. They really do not matter.

If you want to keep the pool clear and clean, you just need to maintain the proper FC level which depends on your CYA level, see the [FC/CYA][/FC/CYA].
That is it, simple as that.

What test kit are you using?
How are you adding chlorine to the pool daily?

Not getting hung up on Flow Rates, but Spa Owners point about potential deadheading the pump is an absolute valid one and one that has prompted me to figure out if my pump speed is indeed the correct one since the installer obviously didn’t do his math correctly. May not be that important when it comes to the well being of my water, but rather important for the health of my pump and my electricity usage.

I use K2006 and liquid chlorine.

 

[jblizzle]

You really can't damage a pool pump in that manner. As long as water is moving through the pump, it will not overheat or get damaged.

As far as electrical usage ... just run the pump at 1000rpm for circulation and then dial it up to get the desires jet action in the spa when needed.

 

[runboy]

You really can't damage a pool pump in that manner. As long as water is moving through the pump, it will not overheat or get damaged.

As far as electrical usage ... just run the pump at 1000rpm for circulation and then dial it up to get the desires jet action in the spa when needed.

There is still a point where the pump is not efficient anymore. I am assuming the max speed was set by the installer based on this. Since his calculations don’t make much sense I would still like to know what that max is.

My Jet action in the Spa is a seperate pump.
Only thing I’m concerned about is having the max efficiency in my pop up system. Wether that means max flow my system can deliver or something else - I have no idea.

 

[runboy]

If anybody has experience with streams and how to avoid any algea problems in them I would also like to hear about them. Is it a must to keep the flow going all the time during daylight or is it good enough to just run it parts of the day?

Currently I just run mine part of the day. I can imagine the small unavoidable pools of water will burn their chlorine pretty quick and potentially get algea.

 

[Wulfdan]

Maybe, what’s your CYA?

 

[ajw22]

Maybe, what’s your CYA?

How about giving us a complete set of test results from you K-2006 kit?

How often do you test FC? How often do you brush?

Brushing the stream can be a problem. Algae creates a biofilm that brushing breaks through to allow the chlorine to attack it. Once algae takes hold in the stream i can see it being hard to clear it. You need to sterilize the stream and then always keep your FC level above your minimum for your CYA level based on [FC/CYA][/FC/CYA]. You can’t let algae take hold in the stream.

The stream looks great but is the root of your unusal maintenance issues in my opinion.

 

[runboy]

I don’t have any visible algea right now.
I am in the process of slamming the pool, hence the high FC

FC 23
PH 7.6
TA 90
CH 300
CYA 50
CSI 0
Temp 86F

I do brush on a daily basis during the SLAM. brushing the stream is painful, so that will only be done monthly or so.

 

[ajw22]

I don’t have any visible algea right now.

Algae does not have to be visible to be in the water and on surfaces waiting to bloom as soon as your FC level falls for a short period of time.

I am in the process of slamming the pool, hence the high FC

FC 23
PH 7.6
TA 90
CH 300
CYA 50
CSI 0
Temp 86F

I do brush on a daily basis during the SLAM. brushing the stream is painful, so that will only be done monthly or so.

I hope you are following the SLAM Process process step by step. Including brushing the stream. And doing an Overnight Chlorine Loss Test of the water in the stream before you declare the SLAM Process complete.

 

[runboy]

Algae does not have to be visible to be in the water and on surfaces waiting to bloom as soon as your FC level falls for a short period of time.

Hence the Slam to make sure.

I hope you are following the SLAM Process process step by step. Including brushing the stream. And doing an Overnight Chlorine Loss Test of the water in the stream before you declare the SLAM Process complete.

Yes, I will try to do my best