Electric Shock Feeling

[DonnaJjean]

He may be an excellent mason, but he's not a qualified pool electrician who understands how equipotential bonding works.

From everything I have read..old threads. New threads…. Comes down to one thing…. Rip it up a second time and put in those new grids and pray!

 

[ajw22]

Praying should not be necessary.

As I suggested earlier, you can implement bonding with temporary wires above ground and verify you no longer feel any voltage.

 

[proavia]

Do as Allen suggests - run temporary wires above ground. This way you can verify exactly what part of the bonding grid you need to address.
Why rip up the entire deck when the issue may be only the water bond or something else not related to the deck itself.

See the two posts Allen linked to in post #3 of this thread.

 

[JohnT]

Had another mason out. Looked at concrete pool deck and said it was a shame to rip it out all over again. Said he knew someone with same problem. They used grounding rods and that solved the problem. He said they drilled holes around the perimeter.

Ground rods would likely make it worse.

 

[nuttyp]

After investing about 40 hours or more of my own time (or more, along with @mas985) across 190+ posts in that other shock/tingle thread a few months ago I’m almost afraid to ‘wade into’ this one. Sorry for the pun! But this can be so frustrating for folks, what the heck….. I think @ajw22 and @JohnT, and others have given you some solid advice and starting points. Absolute NO to grounding rods. And a probable NO to ripping out the deck, at least not until it’s been methodically proven to be the culprit. And the deck seems an unlikely culprit anyway, at least to me, for several reasons, at least thus far. Hopefully that’s a bit reassuring at this point.

As others stated, the whole point of equipotential bonding is to make all points (water, rails, ladders, lights, fences, cages, and deck up to 3 feet out from the pool) at the same voltage level, pretty much regardless of what that level is. Then you can’t get shocked no matter what the neutral is carrying from the power company. All that described in gory detail in the video I’ll reference again below. To make that very point, in the video they actually raised the pool and all equipment to 120 volts or so (not to be tried at home) but nobody got shocked because it was all bonded to the same level. So, since the power folks were already out, you’re probably done chasing them too. Neutral voltages / NEV happens – we get around it with bonding.

I believe what @ajw22 means by incremental testing of each structure is to test each of those pool system components to find out which ones are not bonded together and which ones are not bonded back to the pool equipment at the pump/pad. In other words, again, individually testing each rail, ladder, light, cage, fence, any other metallic surfaces, as well as the deck at several points, water at several points, each tested separately to determine if each is bonded together and all the way back to the equipment pad. Test the easy ones first, the water and deck will be more confusing.

There are several ways to conduct those incremental tests. But I would first suggest, if you have not already done so, watch that video @ajw22 posted (linked again below), a few times until you grasp it well, then proceed to test. Consider also reading through the test plan referenced as a document in the “more” section of youtube info about the video. You can test with a long length of #8 copper wire tied solidly back to the pump/pad bonding and use a meter to measure resistance to various components and structures, and/or voltage to each, or simply use @ajw22’s suggestion to attach that temporary wire to each structure, one at a time, then to all, to see if shocks cease. I would test all those ways if I were doing it. Voltage tests, resistance tests, then bond each with the temporary wire to confirm (always #8 solid wire), also write down and log every step, etc. And remember there could be more than one culprit.

Referencing that former tingles thread again, we determined that at least one rail and ladder were not bonded. In theory, that would have allowed portions of the water to rise to different voltage levels compared to the bonded rail, thus offering tingles between the water and the bonded rail - and perhaps the deck too. We never heard back from the OP about final tests to the light.

Please also remember: When reporting voltage, resistance or current always specify the exact two points you’re measuring between – otherwise we’re lost, or worse we draw incorrect conclusions. Best of luck! Don’t worry, it's not easy but it's solvable!

The video is here: YouTube

 

[ajw22]

After investing about 40 hours or more of my own time (or more, along with @mas985) across 190+ posts in that other shock/tingle thread a few months ago I’m almost afraid to ‘wade into’ this one. Sorry for the pun! But this can be so frustrating for folks, what the heck….. I think @ajw22 and @JohnT, and others have given you some solid advice and starting points. Absolute NO to grounding rods. And a probable NO to ripping out the deck, at least not until it’s been methodically proven to be the culprit. And the deck seems an unlikely culprit anyway, at least to me, for several reasons, at least thus far. Hopefully that’s a bit reassuring at this point.

As others stated, the whole point of equipotential bonding is to make all points (water, rails, ladders, lights, fences, cages, and deck up to 3 feet out from the pool) at the same voltage level, pretty much regardless of what that level is. Then you can’t get shocked no matter what the neutral is carrying from the power company. All that described in gory detail in the video I’ll reference again below. To make that very point, in the video they actually raised the pool and all equipment to 120 volts or so (not to be tried at home) but nobody got shocked because it was all bonded to the same level. So, since the power folks were already out, you’re probably done chasing them too. Neutral voltages / NEV happens – we get around it with bonding.

I believe what @ajw22 means by incremental testing of each structure is to test each of those pool system components to find out which ones are not bonded together and which ones are not bonded back to the pool equipment at the pump/pad. In other words, again, individually testing each rail, ladder, light, cage, fence, any other metallic surfaces, as well as the deck at several points, water at several points, each tested separately to determine if each is bonded together and all the way back to the equipment pad. Test the easy ones first, the water and deck will be more confusing.

There are several ways to conduct those incremental tests. But I would first suggest, if you have not already done so, watch that video @ajw22 posted (linked again below), a few times until you grasp it well, then proceed to test. Consider also reading through the test plan referenced as a document in the “more” section of youtube info about the video. You can test with a long length of #8 copper wire tied solidly back to the pump/pad bonding and use a meter to measure resistance to various components and structures, and/or voltage to each, or simply use @ajw22’s suggestion to attach that temporary wire to each structure, one at a time, then to all, to see if shocks cease. I would test all those ways if I were doing it. Voltage tests, resistance tests, then bond each with the temporary wire to confirm (always #8 solid wire), also write down and log every step, etc. And remember there could be more than one culprit.

Referencing that former tingles thread again, we determined that at least one rail and ladder were not bonded. In theory, that would have allowed portions of the water to rise to different voltage levels compared to the bonded rail, thus offering tingles between the water and the bonded rail - and perhaps the deck too. We never heard back from the OP about final tests to the light.

Please also remember: When reporting voltage, resistance or current always specify the exact two points you’re measuring between – otherwise we’re lost, or worse we draw incorrect conclusions. Best of luck! Don’t worry, it's not easy but it's solvable!

The video is here: YouTube

I think Nutty summed it up quite nicely.

 

[DonnaJjean]

I thank you all very much. Truly. I am trying to process all of what is said. I will not use grounding rods and I will watch the video again and again. Two very important questions, one of which I will ask the electrical contracting firm that came out to do an investigation who I assume has performed all of these tests considering I have paid $3,00.00 +):
1. I am assuming that all bonding is done under the concrete and is tied together around the perimeter. How can I fix only one spot and tie it to the next, etc. around the pool without ripping it out? Maybe the video will help me.
2. What kind of meter should I purchase to get the most accurate results to do this testing myself? Thanks again.
Please Let me share one more time the results of the investigations incase I missed something!

From Electrical Contracting firm:
Performed bonding and grounding inspection - Readings to pump pad all on the 2 ohm range. 5 volts ac +- Water to concrete pool deck. Items that need attention: Bond water (?).
Power company results:
Pool Pump grounding conductor and the Bolt at the Handrail 3.1 Ohms. Pool Pump grounding conductor and Coping Stone near the Bolt at the Handrail - found open circuit (?)
Power company rep: 1.0 volts near entry into pool. .08 volts at ladder on the same side, .03 volts side opposite ladder and .03 volts on side opposite the entry into the pool.
I think this tells me that the problem is near the pool stairs or on that side of the pool. The fix?

Thanks for encouraging words. They mean a lot. I'll continue to investigate and learn along the way.

 

[nuttyp]

@DonnaJjean, speaking for myself and perhaps others, we appreciate the acknowledgement. Not everyone is capable of putting the words thank and you together, but we try anyway. I can answer some of that, perhaps not all – and other folks may have more ideas/opinions.

1. I am assuming that all bonding is done under the concrete and is tied together around the perimeter. How can I fix only one spot and tie it to the next, etc. around the pool without ripping it out? Maybe the video will help me.

Yes, generally speaking I think most or all bonding around the pool area is under the cement. As you may have noticed someplace in the 190+ Tingles post (if you managed to have the patience to walk through it all, lol - and there are some other still longer years-long threads like it) if individual structures are found to be Unbonded, a #8 wire can be run and routed back to the equipment pad and tied in to other bonding there. For example if a rail is found to be an unbonded, it’s not a ton of work to tie in a new #8 wire at the rail anchor, then cut a line in the cement (or use an existing expansion joint if one is nearby), routing the new wire beyond the cement then further routed it as needed back to the pad and tied in there. But worry about all that later after a culprit is found.

Another possibility: When they poured the new 3’ perimeter pad, they should have (and probably did??) reinforce it properly including a bonding grid and run at least one bonding wire from that grid back to an original bonding point, likely toward or at the equipment pad. I think @ajw22 asked if you had any pictures of the reinforcement before they poured – such pics would surely help. There might also be a record of an inspection of all that with the local municipality’s building dept. It could be as simple as that new grid wire laying loose near the pump / equip pad. They get jostled around when work is done, and I find the bonding wires loose and/or disconnected all too often. Nobody cares until someone gets shocked. It’s almost – ummm – shocking. Or someone could have replaced a pump or heater or other device and not secured them all back together. Find one and follow it everywhere, looking also for any pieces not tied into others. I found one coming off my pool cage – buried 6 inches down and unconnected – maybe cut when the bush was planted. Another possibility is they reinforced with a grid and thought they tied it in to another wire they found (eg from a ladder or rail) but that wire didn’t really connect to anything. In that case the fix might still be simple to make a similar cut line from the newish grid back to the equipment pad. But I’m probably speculating too wildly here as there are many possible explanations. One more: Maybe the deck installers were the ones who cut wires from ladder/rails and didn’t re-secure to the rail and/or ladder anchors. I re-pasted the picture @ajw22 posted down below, this is how it should be.

From Electrical Contracting firm:
Performed bonding and grounding inspection - Readings to pump pad all on the 2 ohm range. 5 volts ac +- Water to concrete pool deck. Items that need attention: Bond water (?).
Power company results:
Pool Pump grounding conductor and the Bolt at the Handrail 3.1 Ohms. Pool Pump grounding conductor and Coping Stone near the Bolt at the Handrail - found open circuit (?)
Power company rep: 1.0 volts near entry into pool. .08 volts at ladder on the same side, .03 volts side opposite ladder and .03 volts on side opposite the entry into the pool.
I think this tells me that the problem is near the pool stairs or on that side of the pool. The fix?

I don’t really know how to respond to this portion at the moment. Perhaps others have ideas on a specific way to test the deck itself and associated reinforcement. The smoke you see is me pondering it. It’s still confusing with statements like “Readings to pump pad all on the 2 ohm range” – hard to know exactly what two points were being tested. But “Water to deck 5 volts” is indeed troubling. You may be at the mercy of what the powerco said or wrote, but I can only repeat that statements like “1 volts near entry into pool” and “.08 at ladder” leaves me feeling vague about the exact points tested. I return to folks earlier comments about testing and documenting each two test points, for every structure, which you’re probably already tired of hearing

Another ambiguity is the references to "pool pump grounding" conductors. Incoming power to the pump will have live wire(s) plus something called an ECG - Equipment Grounding Conductor, otherwise known as a usually green ground wire. That is entirely different than the #8 bonding wire. It's wise to differentiate between them when describing tests. Not sure if the powerco folks meant ground wire (ie ECG) or bonding wire in the test to "the coping stone".

Still thinking about the deck tests.

2. What kind of meter should I purchase to get the most accurate results to do this testing myself?

Any digital multimeter seems fine to me. I’ve mentioned before this $20 one from harbor freight – only because it also tests capacitance for some day when you start testing capacitors on your own pumps, heaters and AC systems https://www.harborfreight.com/9-function-digital-multimeter-with-audible-continuity-59410.html There are tons like it on amazon, etc, home sleepo for a few extra $$. Also plenty of youtube videos on how to use them! Disagreements welcome from others – about spending more on better quality meters.

Off to church - not averse to prayers in addition to testing!

 

[mas985]

Do you have any pictures with the rebar and/or grid being bonded right before they poured the new concrete?

They may have neglected to do so which is why you are getting the shocks.

It is fairly common in many parts of the country to encounter NEV (neutral to earth voltage). Most common is caused by the power company and they will have no interest in eliminating unless it is over their threshold (~5v). The only way to eliminate the effect is proper bonding.

The second most common source is the premises neutral having a poor connection to the power co neutral but this can be easily identified by cutting the power to the home and seeing if the voltage on the neutral still exists (power co. issue) or not (premise issue). This one can usually be fixed.

Pictures?