Dissecting My Pool Quote(s)

[kkoepp31]

The vinyl pool builders local to me are booked solid through this coming year and we're looing at possibly mid-summer 2022 before we could get anything built if we get in line right now. Here is a snapshot of the quote and what they are including. Totals out to $65k and some change with tax. I'm expecting this amount to increase by middle of 2022 when we could get it installed. Being that I've never done anything like this before can anyone provide some insight on what looks right or wrong or what I should be asking about? I'm going to delete the deep end bench so that will knock off a good bit of money. I'm also thinking I should buy the mesh safety cover myself for considerably less than $2k. Installing it myself should not be a problem and I'd prefer to find items like that I can do myself to avoid running up costs. Variable speed pump, swg, LED lighting, the auto safety cover, and some form of automation via our phones is a priority to us.

I'm also waiting on a fiberglass quote that should be over within a week. I know that will be more expensive but we've been told we could be third in the ground this coming summer, so that

 

[JJ_Tex]

"Inclusion in the fun pass rewards program"... that made me laugh, but maybe I've been watching too many Griswold Vacation movies lately.

It sounds like you are doing the right thing by getting multiple quotes so you can see the true market price in your area. The only thing I did not see was any sort of pool cleaner. A robot is generally recommended, and you can buy them separately for around $700 or so.

 

[ajw22]

20 mils is a thin liner. Inquire as to the upcharge for a 26-30 mil liner.

Do you have natural gas available for a heater? A heat pump will have limitations in your climate.

Consider changing the Aquarite to the Aqualogic that includes automation and changing the VS Omni pump that includes automation to the Tristar VS pump that does not have automation integrated in it. You have less flexibility in your equipment when your pump includes your automation.

That price for a safety cover is good. You will not do a lot better on your own.

How to select pool equipment - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Equipment Pad Best Practices - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[kkoepp31]

Great feedback, very much appreciated from the both of you. A robot I was definitely planning to purchase on my own. We do have natural gas but was drawn to a heat pump due to efficiency and longer life. I do understand the heat pump won't work below certain temperatures and around here we've had builders tell us that they are selling almost exclusively heat pumps now. Obviously we have a ton of time to work out these equipment details if we were to go with this company but great to know what I should and should not be looking for. The liner seemed "budget" to me and with a dog I figured we would ask about upgrades.

The auto cover is highly preferred in order to avoid needing a fence. I've had some builders say it will be just fine as a winter cover (and again possibly saving the cash on not buying a winter cover) and others suggest against using it in winter. Since it is so expensive I'm guessing it is worth putting as little wear and tear on it as possible.

 

[ajw22]

Talk to the pool owners about how effective the Heat Pump is. Of course the pool builder will say that is what people are buying. But that doesn't mean the pool owner does not regret getting the HP if they could have got a gas heater.

I am skeptical that a HP lasts any longer then a well maintained gas heater. Unless the HP is used less because it is not very effective. And a gas heater is easier to repair. Folks often have difficulty finding someone to work on a pool HP.

In the Northern climate you are spending more and getting less with a pool HP.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Water to fill the pool $550? Can’t you fill the pool with your own water? Do realize that there is generally no difference in the water you supply versus what they will supply. The water truck will drive up empty to the nearest fire hydrant by your home then drive the rest of the way and offload the water. The water supplied will what you get out of a fire hydrant.

I agree with @ajw22 , do more research on your heating options. You have a big pool (> 20,000 gallons) and a tiny heat pump will run forever trying to maintain the water temp.

I am not a fan of auto covers. They are a huge expense and can cost a lot to fix when they breakdown. People get sold on the “safety” aspect of it (especially when kids are involved) but that’s a red herring. Teach kids how to swim and behave safely around a pool and you don’t need to cover it.

Increase the size of the SWG or else it will never keep up. TFP always recommends getting an SWG that is sized for 2X the pool volume. Pool builders rarely understand how SWGs work and what their limitations are and undersize them all the time.

I would put more effort and more support into the pool structure itself. I’m not a fan of galvanized steel panels. They are cheap and can rust out if not properly installed. Polymer walls last longer but have design depth limitations. Consider the construction process more carefully and get more info on what base material they plan to use (vermiculite or sand) and how they plan to backfill the sidewalls (hint - it should not be sand or the excavation material but properly sized and compacted gravel).

These construction and equipment details are often hidden/ignored/glossed-over by the pool builder as they claim their expertise trumps any request from the pool owner to follow more stringent construction practices. Don’t be bullied. Determine what YOU want and request that the builder works to YOUR requests. It’s YOUR MONEY and YOUR HOME, therefore YOU are the decider. If the pool builder doesn’t want your job, then they can walk away before offering you a contract. Also, be very clear about the payment schedule and make sure you hold back at least 10% at the end so that you can hold them accountable. Carefully read the contract before signing and be sure that it is detailed enough to not leave ambiguity.

 

[kkoepp31]

I will have to top the pool off with water from my garden hose. Pretty sure they use the trucks to fill once they drop in the liner so they can do it quickly, or are you implying that I could hire a water truck myself for cheaper? Doing it through my own plumbing would take days I would think.

I can certainly be convinced to go gas heat instead of a heat pump, but I was under the impression the heat pump is much more efficient with better reliability. Either way, that's what I'm here to learn and be given solid advice.

The cover is mostly to prevent needing a fence. This is a big priority to us. Also, the benefits of retaining heat and chemicals is a big bonus. It seemed to make sense for our application but, like with everything else, I could be swayed. Things like requesting a larger SWG system is easy and exactly what I want to know going into this. Huge help, so thank you! I'd much rather overbuild than be replacing parts in a year or two because they aren't good enough.

Was curious of polymer was considered a cheaper part than steel, but the inability to rust would be a huge plus. Anybody have a preference between 42 and 48" walls? We have two young girls, 3 and 6, so this is mostly for them and their friends.

 

[gingrbredman]

One thing we looked at for the fill water was the cost of our own water vs. bringing in trucks. In my area, the cost to fill the pool from our house wasn't as high as $550, but it wasn't like it was $100 either and we could save a ton of money. Take a look at your water costs and see what it would cost to fill the pool from your house. Let's say it is $300, and the builder wants to bring in two trucks for $550. Is it that big of a difference that you make that change, and then convince the pool builder to alter their plans for instillation for that price? Probably not.

For the auto cover, I agree installing one is more than just a safety feature. In the Midwest, keeping the cover on a heated pool into September and October (And early spring) really makes it easy to extend the season a little. We could get 80 degree days and 40 degree nights, and running the heater overnight without the cover on would cost a lot. Is the expense of the cover offset the savings from heating and the chemicals? I'm not sure of that math, but I sure like mine for keeping my pool clean, the perfect temp, and my chemicals in order. But we also have a gas heater, and that thing really heats the water.

There is also a safety aspect beyond just teaching my own kids how to swim, and not needing it, but all the outside factors I have no control over. Yep, I can make sure my kids can swim, and the cover isn't needed for them to keep safe, it is for everyone else and everything else to stay out of the pool when I want it closed.

I know the auto covers are crazy expensive, and probably a lot to repair. But so are lots of things we do with our pools so it all becomes a benefit analysis for me. For us, we wanted the auto cover and am so happy we did it. Would do it again, in my area. Would I do it in Arizona or Texas? Maybe, but here in the Chicagoland area for sure.

As others mentioned, it is very important to get multiple quotes. Maybe this pool builder quoted a 20ml liner just to come in low, or maybe this is just what they use. I've seen a lot of builders who want to come in at the lowest price, but that is not necessarily the pool you want to build.

 

[kkoepp31]

This builder is probably the top one in our area. There are much bigger operations in the metro Detroit operation, but this one is by far the most known in my area. There will be no room to negotiate as they simply don't need to haggle due to demand. It will mostly come down to whether the fiberglass builder can get close enough in cost to make it worth jumping over to that style a pool.

Any regrets on natural gas vs a heat pump? I have no problem shaving down the cost and going gas if it does skyrocket the operating costs. Guessing the auto cover helps the heater significantly in our type of climate.

 

[Griswald]

A fence is generally required by code around any pool. The cover doesn't supersede that code.

Better check on that.

 

[gingrbredman]

Any regrets on natural gas vs a heat pump? I have no problem shaving down the cost and going gas if it does skyrocket the operating costs. Guessing the auto cover helps the heater significantly in our type of climate.

I have no regrets going with a NG heater. A heat pump in our climate just wouldn't heat the pool as quick, or be able to keep up if I wanted to keep it warmer in the cooler temps. We last swam in the pool on November 9th. Outside got up to 70 degrees that day, got the water to almost 90 that day, and not your "typical" swim, but it was a nice end of the year swim. Probably not as efficient as a heat pump, but the NG heater is very nice to get the pool temps where I want them, when we want to swim.

I can also understand what you are saying about the PB. With the demands so high, and a relatively shorting building season than other parts of the county, there are plenty of customers out there for PBs who will pay what the going rate is. And while there isn't maybe to to " negotiate ", there should be room there to add things, or remove things that make your build how you want it. A 20ml liner seems entry level, and a heat pump out of place for your area. Just for example, if upgrading the liner and changing out the heater gets you what you are looking for in a new pool, within what you can pay, that's a great start.

Interested to see what the FG quote comes back at. The FG should be higher, but both are good choices in your area. Only thing about the FB pools, make sure the builder does them well, check other builds or customers. FG pools can be a little harder to install than maybe a liner, and doing it wrong can have bad results on the install. Caved in walls, not level, de-watering installed correctly, etc.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I can certainly be convinced to go gas heat instead of a heat pump, but I was under the impression the heat pump is much more efficient with better reliability. Either way, that's what I'm here to learn and be given solid advice.

This is one area where the industry loves to throw around grandiose claims in their marketing of products but rarely gives the consumer the real information.

Heat is heat is heat .... it's going to cost you money whether you pay for it through your electric utility or your gas utility. A heater simply moves energy from one locations (combustions of gas or pressure-volume work) to another location (your pool water). Saying that a heat pump is "more efficient" than a gas heater is literally comparing apples to oranges.

Heat pumps (max heat rating around 125kBTU/hour) - they are slow to heat anything up but can efficiently keep water warm (assuming you use a pool cover) once you get there. The defining parameter of a heat pump is it's coefficient of performance (COP) which, simplistically speaking, is the ratio of heat energy output to electrical energy input. The COP can vary seasonally anywhere from a lot less than 1 all up to 6 or 7. The major factors that affect a heat pumps performance are outside air temperature and humidity. Most heat pumps will not operate below a certain ambient air temperature to avoid freezing up. Low humidity results in there being less heat energy in the air to “grab” and put in your pool. Here in the southwest desert, it’s far to dry for heat pumps to get anywhere near their theoretical COPs.

Gas heaters (max heat rating up to 400kBTU/hour)- these are more "point of use" heaters and are faster at heating water than a heat pump. They also can be used in a thermostat mode to maintain a set water temperature. Standard natural gas heaters are typically 85% efficient. There are more advanced gas heaters that use titanium heat exchangers which claim to be above 90% efficient BUT they typically cost more than twice what a standard gas heater costs and so there isn't much benefit in paying all that money upfront for a small bump in efficiency. Gas, on an equivalent energy basis, is typically cheaper than electricity in most areas unless taxes are used to distort the market price in favor of one or the other.

Pool heaters, no matter the type, can reliably function for well over 10 years if they are properly maintained and pool water chemistry is properly managed. "Reliability" is a very gauzy term that people like to throw around without giving much specificity on what they mean by it. Gas heaters are very well-know pieces of equipment and they are generally easy to repair as long as nothing catastrophic fails. We have pool owners here on TFP that often post about their "15 year old LAARS Heater finally calling it quits..."
15 years is a pretty good track record. Heatpumps will also last a long time when properly used and maintained but it is often the case that it's harder to find a technician willing to fix a pool heatpump. Most residential HVAC contractors don’t work on pool equipment. So you’re stuck using a more expensive tradesman like a pool service tech. Also, heat pump components can be very expensive to replace and refrigerant costs can vary wildly if the EPA decides to ban whatever is used in your unit.

My personal advice would be to install gas because most people don’t use their pools so frequently enough that a constantly running heat pump would be justified. It’s more often the case that people swim on the weekend and the pool sits unused during the week. In that case, having a fast heating option like a gas heater makes more sense.

 

[kkoepp31]

Am I wrong in thinking that a safety cover like this... Mesh Safety Cover ... at less than $500 is a better option for me than paying the PB over $2k?

I'm pretty much sold on going NG for heat and will enjoy the upfront savings. My wife thinks the pool will get used very often during the week, but I'm still not sure that should sway us back to a heat pump. I really think with the weather we get in Michigan it will help greatly to go with an auto cover. Summers can be hot and brutally humid, but the cover will help keep it clean and trap in the heat, especially once the weather starts to tuen. I'd much prefer to not need a solar cover on reel that sits on the deck taking up space.

We also do not need a fence in our area if we have an auto cover.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Investigate the manufacturers warranty claims and exclusions thoroughly if you buy from an online source. You may not get the full warranty if the installation is not done by a professional. The PB probably gets that exact same safety cover, or similar, for less than what you’re seeing there. They are adding a very steep markup BUT you are also paying for them to install it (properly) and they’ll take on any liability for damage to the decking when they drill and install the anchors. If you do it yourself and the concrete develops cracks, you have no recourse.

Everything in the trades is marked up significantly from DIY but, theoretically, you’re getting their guarantee that it’s being done right and they’ll come back and fix anything that breaks.

 

[kkoepp31]

You'll see the fiberglass quote is much less detailed and this is what was provided after I asked for more details on specific equipment selected. The pool is a fiberglass Leading Edge Bellaire model... Bellaire Pool Description

Quite the premium to pay over vinyl, which should land under $60k once I eliminate the bench. This is would honestly really stretch the budget beyond what I want to spend, but we can be swimming by 4th of July of this year as opposed to late summer of 2022. I do have one more vinyl guy coming today who has availability still late this summer. Lighting does not seem to be Hayward brand. Not sure the impact on automation with this particular light package. They are apparently including some deck jets.

 

[JJ_Tex]

So $70k to go fiberglass and swim this summer, or $60k for vinyl to swim in the summer of 2022? And the $60k price is not firm and would creep up in the next 1.5 years?

That seems like a no brainer to me to get the guaranteed price, swimming a year sooner, and not to start a debate but I think fiberglass is generally considered a better product.

 

[kkoepp31]

I agree our preference would be fiberglass. There is another vinyl builder that is coming over tonight to go over our options. They are a much larger operation from down further towards the Detroit metro area and they have availability in July/August of this year. Would leave a pretty short swim season this year but we'd be ready to go in the spring of 22.

I don't get as great a feel for this glass quote, just because there is very little detail in it, but the shell is the shell and everything else is equipment that for the most part has been listed. Got a good feel for the guy we spoke with and we know people who have used them with positive reviews, so I'm not going to let how they quote throw me too far off. Just is more money than I would like to spend.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I think that fiberglass estimate is under-priced. The biggest issue with FG pools is leveling and installation using compacted gravel, NOT pea stone/sand. Pea stone/sand is a poor choice for backfill as it can washout over time causing the FG pool to settle and crack. The excavation needs to be done carefully and the backfill and leveling needs to be done while the pool is being filled and the gravel is being compacted in lifts. Very few installers are willing to go to that length of effort and most will tell you "sand is just fine for our area" without showing any proof or reasoning.

Also, the FG quote asks for too much money upfront and leaves only 3% held back for final punch list. They can basically drop the equipment in and leave your yard a mess and walk away with 97% of the money ... that's little or no risk on their part but could leave you with a giant mess to clean up. Or, looking at it differently, they are asking for $65,000 when the pool shell is ordered and placed in the ground .... that's 88% of the total price. They drop a FG shell in a hole in your yard and then walk away. Again, all reward for them with all the risk placed on you. Unacceptable.

I'd want way more specificity on the FG pool quote. Maybe you'd get more specifics if they did a detailed plan but that might require some money down ... see what the next vinyl guys says.

 

[NJpoolNoob]

As said earlier, pea gravel/sand backfill is no good. Flex pipe is generally frowned upon as well. Check out the river pools blog on the dos and don'ts of fiberglass pool installation. They have a ton of information as well as a lot of documentation of what happens when things arent done right.
Also double check with your homeowners that just an auto cover is acceptable in lieu of a fence. I'd bet that they will refuse insurance without a fence as they can require safety above and beyond code.

 

[gingrbredman]

I can't speak to this quote being underpriced specifically, but can tell you I believe the overall cost for the new FG backyard pool is likely going to be over $73k considering what they have listed.

I don't get a chance to talk about FG pools as often as the overwhelming builds here are gunnite, but a few things that stand out.

@JoyfulNoise is right on the money with his assessment of the importance of the installer and the materials they use. Your quote shows "pea stone/sand" which is not the right materials for a long lasting FG pool. It does take more work to get a FG pool in right, so besides the shell cost being higher than vinyl, a good FG installer will cost more if they take the time to do it right. See if you can track down the installation instructions from the pool manufacturer and see what it says. I had a Latham pool installed, and they had very detailed instructions on materials, processes, etc. , not just for the right way to do it, but for you to keep your warranty.

Speaking of manufacturer specifications, I would also say don't be weary of flex pipe on a FG install. I know flex pipe can gets a bad wrap, especially in gunnite installations, but the pool manufacturers (Latham for one) call out the pipe to be "schedule 40", and the flex pipe used is schedule 40. Not only do a lot of FG builds use flex, some shells come with pre-installed plumbing from the factory with Flex schedule 40. Also, a few guys that are in the industry around here, that have shown to be a great wealth of knowledge and helpful, do not have an issue with using flex schedule 40 in the right situations. Not trying to start a flex vs. rigid debate, but do some reading here and you will see its ok to go with the flex on a FG install.

You will need a sump pump for sure with a FG pool. Take a look at this thread. Towards the end, you will see a diagram of the de-watering system, as well as a pic of my install. There will be a pipe that comes out of the ground where ground water accumulates. It will need to be pumped out once in a while, depending on your water table, but a pump is a given.
Fiberglass or gunite - high water table area coastal property on a canal Galveston Texas | Trouble Free Pool

Who will hook up the electrical? According to the quote, this is not included. You will need someone to do the electrical work, so if it is not in the quote, that will be extra.

Not to throw too much at once, but also consider where you want the skimmer to be. In the link you sent, it shows the skimmer in the shallow end. These FG shells generally have a few places they can go, so ask where it will be before you order it. Seems trivial, but if your prevailing wind blows towards the deep end, you probably want the skimmer that way too.

Three LED lights should be plenty. I have a 14 x 30 pool with three lights and it is just right.

Of course with either build, it looks like the lawn restoration will be your cost as well.

Just looking at the two quotes:

Liner Pool $63k
Remove Bench ($6)k
Upgrade Liner ?
Lawn Restoration ?

FG Pool $73k
Sump Pump ?
Electrical work?
Lawn Restoration ?

It is hard to compare apples to apples because of the two types of pools, but what you can do is make sure each builder gets you a quote with what you are looking for in a pool, and then compare those quotes.

If it was only $10k more, all things being "equal", I might be temped to go with the FG, but then again, I'm biased here, just one mans opinion who has a FG pool!