Disco Pool

[Vaex]

Miguel brings up some good points, and has his "two eyeball" system working for himself. I just want to point out that the PoolMiser would make what he describes a whole lot easier. As I mentioned, the overflow threshold is adjustable, and could very easily be restricted or even capped off as needed.

There's also a way to use the PoolMiser to control chemical accumulation, which occurs in every pool. It's a bit obscure and an advanced topic, so I didn't add that earlier. I was using this method just yesterday to take advantage of the big rain we just got, to exchange out some of my chemical-heavy existing water. That might get me through next swim season. I'm happy to explain more about what I'm describing, but I really am re-recommending a complete water leveling system...

PoolMiser | The Original Pool & Spa Water Leveler

poolmiser.com

Hi Dirk,
My PB quoted me for $1,600 for the autodrain. I’d like to think that the install is the expensive part. Thanks for the advice

 

[Dirk]

Well, I always find PB quotes to be crazy high, but I think that's more about my own expectations and being out of touch with the current pool market. The raw materials are probably in the $300 range (that would be for a PoolMiser and some PVC pipe). But getting it installed correctly and connecting up all the PVC would take some labor. And the PB is entitled to some profit. So it is what it is.

Put in a better light: if I currently didn't have an auto-leveler, and someone said I could have it for $1600, I wouldn't hesitate. It's a huge convenience for me.

Did your PB mention brand or model?

 

[Nikilyn]

Hello Dirk,
Aside from the swcg, I also asked for autoleveler to be installed. The PB gave me a verbal explanation how the auto fill is all I need then gave me the story how hard it’ll be to install it where they’ll need to dig something separately and do other stuff which felt like it’s going to be expensive. I just emailed him tonight so I still don’t know how much it’ll cost. In the end, it’s a non-negotiable for our peace of mind especially since we’ll be at home mostly on weekends and long holiday breaks. Thank you for giving me the strength to push for it!

Vaex

Why would the leveler need to be dug separately? Ours is right next to the skimmer. No special dig for it.

 

[Dirk]

An auto-leveler is both an auto-filler and an overflow outlet in a single PVC cylindrical chamber. It needs three PVC pipes:

- One goes from the chamber to the pool, through the gunite.

- Another is the water feed, so that has to go from the chamber to a water source. That water source needs to be protected by a Backflow-preventer. Typically the source is the nearest hose bib by the house. Or it could be near the irrigation valves. That pipe needs to be in a trench, dug below the frostline or whatever is local code for burying such things.

- The third is the overflow outlet pipe. This pipe needs to lead to an appropriate exit point for pool water. This could be in some lower corner of your yard. Maybe a French drain. Maybe all the way out to the gutter. Legally, the excess pool water needs to drain to wherever local code allows.

So the water source and the drainage destination may or may not be in a convenient spot, and might need extensive trenching to access. That trenching may or may not be the same that all the other pool plumbing would be in.

The auto-leveler chamber itself is not the installation problem. If fact, the PoolMiser I have can be installed anywhere up to 30' away from the pool. Mine is by my skimmer, like Nikilyn's. But it could have been by my equipment pad. The connection between the chamber and the pool could go in the same trenching as the other pool plumbing. But the plumbing from the chamber to a water source and the drainage destination would still have to be connected to the chamber, wherever it is located.

 

[Vaex]

Well, I always find PB quotes to be crazy high, but I think that's more about my own expectations and being out of touch with the current pool market. The raw materials are probably in the $300 range (that would be for a PoolMiser and some PVC pipe). But getting it installed correctly and connecting up all the PVC would take some labor. And the PB is entitled to some profit. So it is what it is.

Put in a better light: if I currently didn't have an auto-leveler, and someone said I could have it for $1600, I wouldn't hesitate. It's a huge convenience for me.

Did your PB mention brand or model?

No he hasn’t. I’ll ask. I got into a little of a fight since he’s been brushing me aside, giving me answers such as soon, very soon, it’s on my table, and then emailed me that calling/emailing/texting him won’t make him work faster since they’re really busy right now. He ended up apologizing for the delay in response. Said that he never had those requests before. We live here in NorCal, Discovery Bay. Not a lot of rain but given how crazy the weather is recently and how we’re only here on weekends, I’d like to make sure I don’t have to drive from SF to Disco Bay just to make sure the pool is not overflowing.
The Project Manager said to me earlier that they don’t install autodrain but my next door neighbors who used them have it. Sounds to me like they just didn’t want to do it. Eventually, it will be done as per my request. We haven’t done the walkthrough and dig yet and I see some of these “we’ll do it our way” behavior already. Thanks Dirk and everyone from TFP for giving me background knowledge and confidence to communicate with my PB.

 

[Dirk]

PBs are calling the shots just now. Everybody wants a pool. They have more work than they can handle. It doesn't excuse a bad attitude or poor performance, but it might explain it...

 

[Vaex]

I signed an addendum, change-order, to change my black onyx pebble sheen to ocean blue for $750. After about 3 weeks, the office secretary emailed me that there was a mistake. Ocean Blue is a tier 3 upgrade and that I will have to pay around $4k if I want to continue with it. The salesman admitted that the $750 I signed was a mistake and that it’ll be corrected. I told them that I have no more money for that upgrade.

I feel that I am being forced to accept the original black onyx pebble sheen now since when I asked if I can change to a different tier 1 color,they suddenly and for the first time told me that I was quoted with a 50% discount due to a special offer when I signed which is not available anymore. I asked for how much is the price of the non-discounted tier 1 pebble sheen twice already. The first reply, the PB answered my question regarding the tiers 1-3 colors but no prices included. I reiterated my question and I haven’t gotten any response after 2 days.

I haven’t started the build and we don’t even have the permit yet. I have signed the contract though and gave $1k down.
I really feel that they’re lying to me. Since I signed the change-order for $750, that becomes a part of the original contract right? Does that mean they should give me Ocean Blue pebble sheen for the additional $750 price? Anyone with this type of experience? Your thoughts will be greatly appreciated.

vaex

 

[Dirk]

I can answer it this way. If at the end of the job you decided that you made a mistake in signing the original contract, and that you now feel that the project should cost $4000 less, what do you think the PB would say to that? Him coming to you with this, whether it was a mistake or not, is very unprofessional.

A contract is a contract. A change order is an official part of it once signed. There is no renegotiating after either is signed, unless both parties agree to a change (which is explicitly why contracts and change orders exist). Expired discounts and undisclosed prices are of no consequence. And it doesn't matter if he's lying about any of it, or it is all 100% true. You get the Ocean Blue for the agreed upon price of $750.

Now, that said, if he takes that news badly, that could manifest itself elsewhere in your job. As minor as dirty looks and as bad as shortcutting materials and/or quality elsewhere. Or he could walk away. That could end up a bit of a sticky wicket. So that is something to consider, in terms of how you want to handle it.

Either way, you're holding all the cards.

 

[Vaex]

I can answer it this way. If at the end of the job you decided that you made a mistake in signing the original contract, and that you now feel that the project should cost $4000 less, what do you think the PB would say to that? Him coming to you with this, whether it was a mistake or not, is very unprofessional.

A contract is a contract. A change order is an official part of it once signed. There is no renegotiating after either is signed, unless both parties agree to a change (which is explicitly why contracts and change orders exist). Expired discounts and undisclosed prices are of no consequence. And it doesn't matter if he's lying about any of it, or it is all 100% true. You get the Ocean Blue for the agreed upon price of $750.

Now, that said, if he takes that news badly, that could manifest itself elsewhere in your job. As minor as dirty looks and as bad as shortcutting materials and/or quality elsewhere. Or he could walk away. That could end up a bit of a sticky wicket. So that is something to consider, in terms of how you want to handle it.

Either way, you're holding all the cards.

Thanks as always. Dirk!

When I did my research, I know that my PB is good. I also read a number of negative reviews. They can be nasty when faced with complaints. I don’t think they’ll be very accommodating with me as much as I will be with them. I am concerned about them shortchanging me somewhere else.

One of my concerns now is this, how can I be sure that there’ll be no more, “Sorry, it’s my bad” kind of thing? I feel like if I let them get away with this and agree that it was an honest mistake, they’ll still take advantge of me in the future. In fact, telling me that I actually had a discount for the Black Onyx and that other tier 1 colors will cost more sounds like an attempt to do that already since they’re aware I’m already over budget.

Doing the Math, if I paid half price for Black Onyx, which cost $6,400, that means the full price is $12,800. Which makes the Ocean Blue just around $10,000. This could be the reason why I haven’t gotten a response to my last email.

I’m leaning towards upholding the change order. They are bound by the contract and inspection. If I don’t show them that I can’t be pushed around, then they’ll just continue pushing me. Thank you again, Dirk!

 

[Dirk]

I went back a ways in your thread. Looks like you've got about a 6400 gal pool. Half mine. Pebble was about $9K for my 12K gal pool, but that included a full chip out and cleaning the old tile. Nothing fancy about my pebble. I'm not familiar with all the tiers, and I know pool prices are up, but you're talkin' some big numbers. He's got plenty of profit in there, IMO.

You say you like your PB, and that's good. But he's definitely working you. Not ripping you off, exactly, but not being especially magnanimous. Remember: the UV/Ozone scam? And then the auto-fill estimate? Now he's playing some kind of game with the finish.

Anywho... just be careful with this guy.

Here's a possible solution, if things look like they might go south by asking him to honor the contract (Can't believe I have to write that! Crazy times we're livin' in!!). Ask him to produce the material invoices. Or his wholesaler's price list. His costs. Make him prove what he's paying for the Onyx, vs the Blue that you want. The labor for each should be a wash. How much more, exactly, is he paying for that Blue. Offer to split the difference with him.

I doubt he'll go for that, because my gut is: half the difference is less than the $750. I wouldn't be surprised if the entire difference is less than $750. Either way, at least you'd be offering something reasonable. If he balks, and refuses, then he was probably scamming you in some way.

You have some leverage. You can keep a close eye on the quality of his work. Make him make a quality pool. You know you'll get lots of help from TFP in that endeavor. If he threatens to walk, you threaten him right back. He'll be in breech and technically you could sue him for the difference between his contract and the cost of someone else building the identical pool. Now, no one wants to go down that road. That's last-resort stuff. But it's not a baseless threat if you need to use it.

Hopefully, cooler heads will prevail. You'll calmly explain that you've got a contracted price, and that's what you're willing to pay. No more. No less. And hopefully he'll just shrug it off, as he realizes he barked up the wrong tree.

Just a little devil's advocate stuff for you to ponder.

 

[Vaex]

I went back a ways in your thread. Looks like you've got about a 6400 gal pool. Half mine. Pebble was about $9K for my 12K gal pool, but that included a full chip out and cleaning the old tile. Nothing fancy about my pebble. I'm not familiar with all the tiers, and I know pool prices are up, but you're talkin' some big numbers. He's got plenty of profit in there, IMO.

You say you like your PB, and that's good. But he's definitely working you. Not ripping you off, exactly, but not being especially magnanimous. Remember: the UV/Ozone scam? And then the auto-fill estimate? Now he's playing some kind of game with the finish.

Anywho... just be careful with this guy.

Here's a possible solution, if things look like they might go south by asking him to honor the contract (Can't believe I have to write that! Crazy times we're livin' in!!). Ask him to produce the material invoices. Or his wholesaler's price list. His costs. Make him prove what he's paying for the Onyx, vs the Blue that you want. The labor for each should be a wash. How much more, exactly, is he paying for that Blue. Offer to split the difference with him.

I doubt he'll go for that, because my gut is: half the difference is less than the $750. I wouldn't be surprised if the entire difference is less than $750. Either way, at least you'd be offering something reasonable. If he balks, and refuses, then he was probably scamming you in some way.

You have some leverage. You can keep a close eye on the quality of his work. Make him make a quality pool. You know you'll get lots of help from TFP in that endeavor. If he threatens to walk, you threaten him right back. He'll be in breech and technically you could sue him for the difference between his contract and the cost of someone else building the identical pool. Now, no one wants to go down that road. That's last-resort stuff. But it's not a baseless threat if you need to use it.

Hopefully, cooler heads will prevail. You'll calmly explain that you've got a contracted price, and that's what you're willing to pay. No more. No less. And hopefully he'll just shrug it off, as he realizes he barked up the wrong tree.

Just a little devil's advocate stuff for you to ponder.

I’ve been thinking about it the whole night. I appreciate you looking into the whole situation. The salesman/engineer who designed my pool and gave me the estimate suddenly got salty (no pun intended) after I made the change order for swcg and auto-leveler which in turned had to cancel my uv/ozone system. I also cancelled my coping color that time and use the money in o add stamped concrete deck and hand casted glass beads. I’m currently working on an $83k worth of pool which is actually 5,500 gallons only being it’s 6.6’ x 33.6’. The whole time I was in this process, he was stalling communication with me by saying he’ll give me the addendum that week which he changed to early next week after I followed up on it. I patiently waited and followed up when the “early next week” arrived. He then started responding with “I’m working on the addendum”, “it’s on top of my table”, “I’ll get it soon”, and “I’ll get it very soon”. He expressed frustration/annoyance with me following up on it but eventually apologized to me saying he was very busy. My thing is, those replies feel like he’s talking to a kid with no sense of time. He was
Brushing me aside and showing me that prospective clients matter more than me because I’m already contracted.


I do want to have a formal dialogue instead and have a peaceful compromise instead. By main goal is for them to build a quality pool and not to take advantage of me.

Btw, if I’m doing the math again, $6,400 for the Black Onyx + $750 brings the total price of Ocean Blue to $7,150. Im not sure of it but that sounds like a reasonable price especially for my pool specs (80’ perimeter).

I will ask for a formal face to face meeting or even on Zoom so we can talk about it. Thank you once again for the devil’s advocate side of thinking. Wish me luck the next few days. Oh, have I told you I still don’t have my permit after 5 weeks? Hasn’t started the layout. Walkthrough. And the dig, yet we’re already in this type of situation. I’m also considering dissolving the contract before it gets worse butI heard it’s not easy.

 

[Dirk]

Wish me luck the next few days.

You got it!!

Oh, have I told you I still don’t have my permit after 5 weeks? Hasn’t started the layout. Walkthrough. And the dig, yet we’re already in this type of situation. I’m also considering dissolving the contract before it gets worse butI heard it’s not easy.

Frankly, I think some of your PB's shenanigans are based on the current profit grab going on in the industry. Get while the gettin's good. He might be pushing you for some extra profit because he knows he's got nothing to lose. He's got a waiting list a mile long should you go away. And that waiting list is full of people who will pay even more for the same pool. So for him, his ploy is win-win. (Admittedly, this is me projecting my anti-contractor leanings, but it certainly could explain why he's willing to attempt to breech his own contract.)

I half believe that the $4K mistake they're claiming is not that he's losing $4K, but rather he neglected to overcharge by that amount, because he can right now.

And to be fair (let's say he really did make a $4K mistake), that $4K is not a small percentage of the $83K, it's a much, much larger percentage of his profit. At least that's how he looks at it. $4K might be half his profit, or a third, or whatever. That's money out of his pocket, is his thinking.

Point was, if you offered him out of the contract for your deposit back, he might just jump on it.

There's also a chance that waiting for a year or two to build your pool might save you a chunk. Once all the "covid pools" are built, I'm predicting (based on nothing but instinct, mind you) that pool prices will come back down.

 

[Vaex]

You got it!!

Frankly, I think some of your PB's shenanigans are based on the current profit grab going on in the industry. Get while the gettin's good. He might be pushing you for some extra profit because he knows he's got nothing to lose. He's got a waiting list a mile long should you go away. And that waiting list is full of people who will pay even more for the same pool. So for him, his ploy is win-win. (Admittedly, this is me projecting my anti-contractor leanings, but it certainly could explain why he's willing to attempt to breech his own contract.)

I half believe that the $4K mistake they're claiming is not that he's losing $4K, but rather he neglected to overcharge by that amount, because he can right now.

And to be fair (let's say he really did make a $4K mistake), that $4K is not a small percentage of the $83K, it's a much, much larger percentage of his profit. At least that's how he looks at it. $4K might be half his profit, or a third, or whatever. That's money out of his pocket, is his thinking.

Point was, if you offered him out of the contract for your deposit back, he might just jump on it.

There's also a chance that waiting for a year or two to build your pool might save you a chunk. Once all the "covid pools" are built, I'm predicting (based on nothing but instinct, mind you) that pool prices will come back down.

Hello again, Dirk.

For an update, my PB agreed to offer me a different Tier 1 color of my choice. I chose Blue Granite. It's not as dark as Ocean Blue but not too black as Black Onyx. I sent him an email asking for the prices of Pebble Tec, Pebble Sheen, and Pebble Fina. He tried to stall giving a reply and I responded by making sure I stated how I patiently waited for his email reply after 4 days, and then 3 days later, I emailed him again. If you can recall, we had an issue with him responding to my communication attempts and trying to brush me off. I pretended that I was trying to see what are my options but was actually hoping he'd give me a number so I can catch discrepancies. As predicted, he didn't give me what I requested for since I noticed PBs are protecting plaster finishes pricing. It seemed like they talked to each other to not disclose plaster finishes and to make sure to offer UV/Ozone over saltwater systems.

He texted me today (I make sure I don't erase all forms of communications including text so I can use them if ever needed). He's making it look like the following:
1. I'm fickle-minded
2. I'm confusing him
3. That he "tried to explain" I can pick other standard colors (not true because they're forcing me on Black Onyx)
All this while still trying to make the process fast asking me if I want to get the Ocean Blue.

I just kept on repeating my response which was, "I want to get what's in the addendum he generated and I signed for $750." Then I added. "Was that addendum valid and legal?" I asked for us to talk before he generates another addendum and he did call me. I chose/settled for Blue Granite because I can tell they won't give me Ocean Blue. Credit to you for being my Devil's Advocate. I know I legally have a leg to stand on and got my documentation ready but I don't want them to short-change me somewhere else. At least I got some form of victory where they can't push me to something I'm not comfortable with. I agree to an addendum where we will start all over again but told him to document that we are nullifying the old one so everything will be recorded. I also expressed my concern about having another price changed on me in the future. After I get this addendum, I'm going to ask for an itemized cost. Hopefully, we can move forward from this and they won't try to pull a fast one on me anymore.

Vaex

 

[mguzzy]

Good Luck! what a ride!

 

[Vaex]

Good Luck! what a ride!

Thanks, Mguzzy!
And I haven’t even gotten the permit yet.
Oh, I just remembered one of Dirk’s most common suggestions, to make sure I document the phone convo. I’ll send that together with my official request for an itemized cost.

 

[mguzzy]

Its unfortunate when you feel like you need to cover your butt like this just going into a conversation with someone YOU are paying... It doesn't bode well for developing a trusting relationship.. I hope you all can come to terms and get on the same page or its going to be a battle for the whole build. That's my feeling.

 

[Dirk]

Hello again, Dirk.

For an update, my PB agreed to offer me a different Tier 1 color of my choice. I chose Blue Granite. It's not as dark as Ocean Blue but not too black as Black Onyx. I sent him an email asking for the prices of Pebble Tec, Pebble Sheen, and Pebble Fina. He tried to stall giving a reply and I responded by making sure I stated how I patiently waited for his email reply after 4 days, and then 3 days later, I emailed him again. If you can recall, we had an issue with him responding to my communication attempts and trying to brush me off. I pretended that I was trying to see what are my options but was actually hoping he'd give me a number so I can catch discrepancies. As predicted, he didn't give me what I requested for since I noticed PBs are protecting plaster finishes pricing. It seemed like they talked to each other to not disclose plaster finishes and to make sure to offer UV/Ozone over saltwater systems.

He texted me today (I make sure I don't erase all forms of communications including text so I can use them if ever needed). He's making it look like the following:
1. I'm fickle-minded
2. I'm confusing him
3. That he "tried to explain" I can pick other standard colors (not true because they're forcing me on Black Onyx)
All this while still trying to make the process fast asking me if I want to get the Ocean Blue.

I just kept on repeating my response which was, "I want to get what's in the addendum he generated and I signed for $750." Then I added. "Was that addendum valid and legal?" I asked for us to talk before he generates another addendum and he did call me. I chose/settled for Blue Granite because I can tell they won't give me Ocean Blue. Credit to you for being my Devil's Advocate. I know I legally have a leg to stand on and got my documentation ready but I don't want them to short-change me somewhere else. At least I got some form of victory where they can't push me to something I'm not comfortable with. I agree to an addendum where we will start all over again but told him to document that we are nullifying the old one so everything will be recorded. I also expressed my concern about having another price changed on me in the future. After I get this addendum, I'm going to ask for an itemized cost. Hopefully, we can move forward from this and they won't try to pull a fast one on me anymore.

Vaex

It sounds like you've weighed all the options and consequences of actions and found the middle ground you can live with. You're following your gut about what to push for and what to accept, and that's the right way to go. Let me know if I can be of any further rousing, uh, I mean help.

 

[OrlandoBull]

Just catching up on this. Good luck with your build. I would suggest that you keep on top of everything from this point forward, and make as few changes as possible. I agree with Dirk, feels like the PB thinks he can squeeze some more profit, so he will try again if given the opportunity.

For reference, and I am in FL, but I got a price of $12/SF for pebblesheen. This was for blue surf, so I expect that there is some variation in color. However, I also got a price of $22/sf for Brilliance... which would be a $2250 difference in your pool for the much more premium surface. I know prices are different there, but it's a comparison point and $4k for the change you requested is insane! Honestly, his first number was probably correct (on the high side), now, he's playing a game where his cost is probably the same and just keeping you from getting what you want out of spite. These were direct from the installer, so, a PB may be marking up 20-30% I guess.

 

[Vaex]

Its unfortunate when you feel like you need to cover your butt like this just going into a conversation with someone YOU are paying... It doesn't bode well for developing a trusting relationship.. I hope you all can come to terms and get on the same page or its going to be a battle for the whole build. That's my feeling.

I agree, Mguzzy. Unfortunately, even though I’m paying them, their clear manipulation of truth, nondisclosure of prices, and pushing for the UV/Ozone clearly tells their loyalty is in profit.
Orlando, I agree that the price increase maybe out of spite too aside from profit. He seemed to be not so thrilled with my switching to saltwater system and getting an autodrain/leveler. That’s when I got the email that my price for the Ocean Blue pebble sheen increased after 3 weeks of signing the change order. I could have gone to cslb or bbb for this but I know that in the end, whatever pool finish I choose, my family would enjoy the pool. With that in mind, just like what Dirk said, I weighed my options and consequences of actions. This will hopefully be the end of issues and just move forward with the build.
Still no news of permit approval after 5 weeks btw. Is there a way for me to find out by going straight to the County office? Thanks, all!

 

[Newdude]

I could have gone to cslb or bbb for this

The BBB is a joke. I had a legit complaint with a business offering zero solution to the problem except ‘tough luck we don’t care’. Even with me willing to compromise and them not, all facilitated through the BBB moderator, BBB chose not to publish the complaint/exchange/outcome. I wasn’t looking for any miracles. I just wanted it seen by people looking the business up to see how they resolve issues. By laughing.