I’m breaking barriers tomorrow. Will be hooking up an intelliPh using a series of power supplies, relay, and digital timer. I’ll update if anyone’s interested. I need 2 power supplies due to my timer being 12vd,
I saw your question and said to myself.. "Of course you can use the IntellipH without the salt cell, what company would design an acid feeder that was not standalone?"
Then I read the manual and it appears Pentair engineers are not all that sharp... It appears to me that the IntellipH has no power supply so you would need the IntelliChlor's power supply to make it work.. But wait, that is not bad enough, you also need feedback from the cell showing the flow switch is closed and that the cell is operating.
I added the IntellipH to my list of things I do NOT want for Christmas...
I suspect that you were using an IC40 salt cell, which is way too small for the size of you pool.. When you say "Fresh Water" I assume you mean a regular chlorine pool and not a saltwater pool..
Thanks,
Jim R.
Determined to make IntelliPh stand on its own
- Thread starter Steve_from_TX
- Start date
Looked everywhere for a reason why and intelliPh wouldn’t work without a salt cell. Spoke to Pentair tech line. Guy said no way. I asked if proper voltage was applied to the pump would it run? He agreed it would. I told him that’s good enough for me so I ordered to $400 tank/pump combo (522472). Hooking it up tomorrow. I’ll keep y’all posted. I’ll attach my rough idea. Had to use 2 power supplied due to my digital timer being 12v and pump being 24VDC
Attachments
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,883
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
There are several reasons Pentair made the IntellipH dependent on an IntelliChlor.
- They use the same power supply.
- That power supply is supposed to be wired to only run when the main pump is running.
- The IpH monitors the IC's flow switch so that it won't pump acid unless there is actually sufficient flow past its injector, independent of the pump getting power.
- The IpH monitors the IC's temperature sensor so that it won't pump acid unless the water is warm enough.
- And the IpH disengages the IC while it's pumping acid so that you don't get high concentrations of acid and chlorine in the plumbing at the same time (which can be quite dangerous).
Your schematic doesn't seem to provide any of those safeguards. It'll allow the acid pump to inject acid whether the pump is running or not, and whether there is actually flow or not. Depending on where you are planning to connect the acid injector to your plumbing, that could either be bad, or really bad, in the event of a no-flow situation.
I didn't re-read this thread, but it's likely I referenced my solution for running an IpH without my IC online. I do so in the winter months. But I developed a circuit that provides all the safeguards that Pentair put in place. If you'd like more info about that, let me know.
As an additional safeguard, you should not load your IpH tank with an amount of acid that would create too much havoc should your setup inadvertently pump the entire contents of the tank into your pool (like if the timer or relay failed in the "on" position for some reason). You can limit either the amount the tank has in it at any given time, or adjust the dilution of the acid, or both.
I never have more than about a gallon of 31% acid in my tank. I dilute the acid by adding water in a 1:1 ratio. So if my setup fails and dumps my acid tank into the pool, it'll crash my pH for a week or so, but not impact my pool or swimmers in any significantly negative way.
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- Jul 21, 2013
- 52,854
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
It sounds you are trying to use the IntellipH tank without the Pentair controller and build your own controller using a timer.
Your controller design lacks the safeguards Pentair designed into theirs as @Dirk explained elsewhere.
Let us know how it works out.
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IntelliPH work around?
I used the IntelliChlor transformer in the ET wired to a relay after the voltage got stepped down to power the acid pump. I realize this is an old thread now, but I landed here because it sounds like @bdavis466 did exactly what I'm trying to do in commandeering control of the IPH. I've been...
www.troublefreepool.com
I would be leery of doing this without automation
The IntelliCenter has built in relays to control various devices, lights, pumps etc. How you go into the menu and label these determines how they behave. For example if you classify a relay as “lights” it allows you to set schedules for that “light relay” whenever you’d like with no regard to whether the pump is running or not. I, however, determined if you label it as “ChemFeeder” then that relay will then only switch that circuit when the master pool pump is active. So, I used that relay to supply power to the plug that I installed on the side of the intellicenter panel. The plug is only energized when the pump is on for whatever scheduled time I have it set. I built my controller with a short plug whip that I can just plug into that plug, which guarantees that the only time i’m pumping acid is when the pool pump is running. Regarding “flow” I am taking the risk, I suppose, that at 10:00 am when my pump comes on I could have some failure that the pump didn’t prime for some reason, this has never happened in 4 years of owning this pool, and has never happened on any pool I’ve ever owned.
I own a company that build chemical injection pumps for the oilfield. I used one of my timers to control this pump. Doing some flow testing to determine the acid feeders output and some math I’ve got it set to run 2.0 seconds on and 9 minutes off (that may need some tweaking with time/testing but so far it’s pretty close). The 2.0 seconds of runtime dispenses roughly 1/4 ounce of acid. My pool to maintain a 7.3/7.4 needs roughly 15-16 ounces of acid per day. With 9 minutes of time and the 9.5 hours a day I run my pump that give me 63 9 minute cycles to pump acid. @ .25 oz X 63 cycles that should inject just under 16 oz. If time proved I need a bit more I can run 2.1, 2.2 etc. If I need a bit less 1.9, 1.8 so on and so forth.
My injection point it downstream of everything else on the return manifold back out to the pool.
So far so good, I’ll share an update in the days ahead.
PS I needed two power supplies because my timer is 12VDC and the acid pump is 24VDC. But I’m firing a relay that’s 3-32 VDC so the coil side being 12v and load side being 24v is all good.
Attachments
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,883
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Welcome to TFP, by the way. Glad you found us. We encourage our Members to fill in their signature and describe their pool and equipment, something like mine is ideal. Then we can offer better, more specific advice. You hadn't mentioned that you have an IntelliCenter, and that you were going to plug your gizmo into one of its relays. So my answer would have been fine-tuned for that.
Now that I understand that you're going to use an IntelliCenter relay, your schematic makes no sense. If your plug goes into a relay, then power to the timer will be going on and off and so won't keep time. You don't need that timer, nor the 12V power supply to run it. All you need is the 24V power supply. Draw its power though your IntelliCenter's pump relay (you don't need to dedicate some other relay as "ChemFeeder"), which will ensure it'll only run when the pump is supposed to be on. Then use a second IntelliCenter relay as the acid timer. Then you can make adjustments online (same way you control other pool automation functions). I run mine once a day for four minutes. That's it. If you have the available schedules, you can run it multiple times a day if you want to.
Less parts. Less to go wrong. You didn't need that timer, the 12V supply or that relay. All you needed was a 24V power supply, you already had everything else you needed.
You'll probably get the pH you're after that way, but if you cannot, instead of a fancy timer to dial in the "2.1, 2.2 etc.", you can just adjust the acid concentration in the tank. You can dilute the acid in the tank with water to fine tune the pH adjustment.
Read this for what I believe to be the right way to do this. I have an IntelliChlor, so my setup is a little more complicated than yours would be, but the schematic I provide has the basics of how you should wire your setup.
www.troublefreepool.com
If you're interested, I can help you modify my schematic to eliminate the parts of it you won't need. Or if you've already built your setup, and want to leave it all alone, do it your way.
So you've already written part of my answer. That safeguard is great, but only tells you when the pump is supposed to be on, not when the water is actually flowing. A flow switch would be a good secondary safeguard. They are not expensive. Anywho, you understand the risks, so my job is done!
Now that I understand that you're going to use an IntelliCenter relay, your schematic makes no sense. If your plug goes into a relay, then power to the timer will be going on and off and so won't keep time. You don't need that timer, nor the 12V power supply to run it. All you need is the 24V power supply. Draw its power though your IntelliCenter's pump relay (you don't need to dedicate some other relay as "ChemFeeder"), which will ensure it'll only run when the pump is supposed to be on. Then use a second IntelliCenter relay as the acid timer. Then you can make adjustments online (same way you control other pool automation functions). I run mine once a day for four minutes. That's it. If you have the available schedules, you can run it multiple times a day if you want to.
Less parts. Less to go wrong. You didn't need that timer, the 12V supply or that relay. All you needed was a 24V power supply, you already had everything else you needed.
You'll probably get the pH you're after that way, but if you cannot, instead of a fancy timer to dial in the "2.1, 2.2 etc.", you can just adjust the acid concentration in the tank. You can dilute the acid in the tank with water to fine tune the pH adjustment.
Read this for what I believe to be the right way to do this. I have an IntelliChlor, so my setup is a little more complicated than yours would be, but the schematic I provide has the basics of how you should wire your setup.
Hacking IntellipH to work in cold water
As Pentair IntellipH (IpH) automatic acid dosing system owners know, the IpH depends on a Pentair IntellliChlor (IC) saltwater chlorine generator. The IpH uses the IC's power supply, and monitors its flow switch, so that it won't dispense acid if the IC is reporting low flow. Unfortunately, it...
www.troublefreepool.com
If you're interested, I can help you modify my schematic to eliminate the parts of it you won't need. Or if you've already built your setup, and want to leave it all alone, do it your way.
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Hey @Steve_from_TX , a couple additional comments:
Your circuit looks like it would work (is it?) since your duty cycle generator (not really a traditional timer) probably keeps its settings when losing power. However…
1) I also urge some kind of flow sensor or equivalent “pump running” check (a few threads detail use of current detectors for the pump power). I had a near disaster in my system that came from an unexpected condition that had never happened previously (in 30 years). We had a some rain storms during a month long vacation, and sometime during that period my pump circuit breaker triggered. Unfortunately, a perfect storm including a software error (untested…which was supposed to detect such a condition, haha) AND a phone change (which prevented my monitoring of the system) added up to who know how many days of acid (and chlorine!) being injected into my pad pipes. Luckily the damage was limited (a dissolved and leaking stainless steel temperature sensor)…but it could have been much, much worse. My problem is fixed now but that is an example of a case that might not be taken into account by your system, and I am sure there are others.
2) Dirk’s comment about simplicity hits a nail as well. Many, many users in this forum add acid every few days or even weekly. The rise (and then correction) of pH over that time doesn’t really have any significant operating impact on the pool chemistry. There is not really a benefit to spreading out the acid dosing over time rather than to say, one injection a day. Not sure how big your pool is and what acid % you are adding (your signature is not filled out), but in my ~14K gallon pool I add 8 ounces once a day (32%). In my pool that lowers pH about .15. Spreading that out over the day (or roughly a 1/3 of the day in your case: 9.5 hours), isn’t going to make a difference to the pool chemistry. So, like Dirk, I would recommend simply using the Intellicenter control to inject acid once (or twice, if you wish) a day rather than the extra complexity (which IS cool, but probably unnecessary ).
Your circuit looks like it would work (is it?) since your duty cycle generator (not really a traditional timer) probably keeps its settings when losing power. However…
1) I also urge some kind of flow sensor or equivalent “pump running” check (a few threads detail use of current detectors for the pump power). I had a near disaster in my system that came from an unexpected condition that had never happened previously (in 30 years). We had a some rain storms during a month long vacation, and sometime during that period my pump circuit breaker triggered. Unfortunately, a perfect storm including a software error (untested…which was supposed to detect such a condition, haha) AND a phone change (which prevented my monitoring of the system) added up to who know how many days of acid (and chlorine!) being injected into my pad pipes. Luckily the damage was limited (a dissolved and leaking stainless steel temperature sensor)…but it could have been much, much worse. My problem is fixed now but that is an example of a case that might not be taken into account by your system, and I am sure there are others.
2) Dirk’s comment about simplicity hits a nail as well. Many, many users in this forum add acid every few days or even weekly. The rise (and then correction) of pH over that time doesn’t really have any significant operating impact on the pool chemistry. There is not really a benefit to spreading out the acid dosing over time rather than to say, one injection a day. Not sure how big your pool is and what acid % you are adding (your signature is not filled out), but in my ~14K gallon pool I add 8 ounces once a day (32%). In my pool that lowers pH about .15. Spreading that out over the day (or roughly a 1/3 of the day in your case: 9.5 hours), isn’t going to make a difference to the pool chemistry. So, like Dirk, I would recommend simply using the Intellicenter control to inject acid once (or twice, if you wish) a day rather than the extra complexity (which IS cool, but probably unnecessary ).
Thanks for the reply. My goal was to mimic the IntelliPh operation the best I could…short doses throughout the day. I have a home on the coast with a SW pool that I also run an IntelliPh on that’s hooked up the way it’s supposed to be, with the salt cell in line. So far it works flawlessly and my pH is maintaining at 7.5 keeping my LSI at near zero around the clock. I’ll try to tag a video to this comment. Thanks for the reply. Won’t let me put a video… I’ll post a couple pics.
Attachments
- Jul 21, 2013
- 52,854
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Load your video onto YouTube and post the link to it here.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,883
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Sidebar...
The IpH has two ports into the tank. One is used by the pump to draw out the acid, the other is a vent. That vent passes air back and forth, either from the acid level dropping from normal use, or due to the air inside the tank expanding and contracting relative to the ambient air temp. Every time the vent releases air, it's subjecting your surrounding equipment to acid fumes, which will eventually tear apart anything metal in the vicinity, even stainless steel.
You should attach a 1/4" tube to that vent and run it as far away from your equipment pad as possible. And as far away from anything else metal in your yard as possible, too. The IpH should have shipped with some extra 1/4" tubing for that very purpose.
I ran my vent tube slightly downhill, so that no moisture would collect in the tube.
The IpH has two ports into the tank. One is used by the pump to draw out the acid, the other is a vent. That vent passes air back and forth, either from the acid level dropping from normal use, or due to the air inside the tank expanding and contracting relative to the ambient air temp. Every time the vent releases air, it's subjecting your surrounding equipment to acid fumes, which will eventually tear apart anything metal in the vicinity, even stainless steel.
You should attach a 1/4" tube to that vent and run it as far away from your equipment pad as possible. And as far away from anything else metal in your yard as possible, too. The IpH should have shipped with some extra 1/4" tubing for that very purpose.
I ran my vent tube slightly downhill, so that no moisture would collect in the tube.
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I am going to attempt to use an IntellipH in a similar way that you did, except, I am going to be connecting it to a relay controlled by an Arduino micro computer. My question is the IntellipH I purchased has two wires to power it. I assume from your work that this is for the 24VDC connection. My IntellipH connector has a black and a white wire. Do you recall which wire is + and which one is - for the DC power supply. Typically DC connections are black for - and red for +. Black and white wires typically indicate an AC connection for hot and common.
Thanks for your help.
Thanks for your help.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,883
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
My pump wires were black and red. Black was ground.
Did you buy the stand-alone tank, or the entire IntellipH system, with controller?
The IntellipH controller accepts 22-39 VDC. You could connect whatever 24 VDC power supply you intend to use with the pump to the controller, and then confirm which of the pump wires is which. You'd fire up the controller and initiate a manual injection cycle. I think that'll work. It'll complain that there is no IntelliChlor, but it should pump anyway. You shouldn't need to connect the pump, just measure the voltage to the pump cable.
Or maybe you won't need to do that if the circuit board inside the controller labels the solder points where the pump cable connects. Alternately, you could determine which of those two solder points is ground by following the traces of the circuit board (this is the surest safest way to confirm).
If none of that make sense, take a pic of the inside of your controller and we'll try to sort it out.
Point being, even if others tell you how theirs is wired, yours might not be the same. Best to figure it out for sure based on what is in front of you.
Or you could always just run the pump off of 24 VDC, taking your best guess (black ground, white positive) and observe the direction the pump rotates. That's the sure fire way. I cannot say for certain there is no circuitry in the pump motor itself, that could be harmed by reversing the polarity for a quick second. I doubt there is, just be aware that's only a guess.
So there's a few ways to skin that cat.
@ogdento, @Flying Tivo, would you know if that IntellipH motor can be run backwards for a second or two without harm?
Did you buy the stand-alone tank, or the entire IntellipH system, with controller?
The IntellipH controller accepts 22-39 VDC. You could connect whatever 24 VDC power supply you intend to use with the pump to the controller, and then confirm which of the pump wires is which. You'd fire up the controller and initiate a manual injection cycle. I think that'll work. It'll complain that there is no IntelliChlor, but it should pump anyway. You shouldn't need to connect the pump, just measure the voltage to the pump cable.
Or maybe you won't need to do that if the circuit board inside the controller labels the solder points where the pump cable connects. Alternately, you could determine which of those two solder points is ground by following the traces of the circuit board (this is the surest safest way to confirm).
If none of that make sense, take a pic of the inside of your controller and we'll try to sort it out.
Point being, even if others tell you how theirs is wired, yours might not be the same. Best to figure it out for sure based on what is in front of you.
Or you could always just run the pump off of 24 VDC, taking your best guess (black ground, white positive) and observe the direction the pump rotates. That's the sure fire way. I cannot say for certain there is no circuitry in the pump motor itself, that could be harmed by reversing the polarity for a quick second. I doubt there is, just be aware that's only a guess.
So there's a few ways to skin that cat.
@ogdento, @Flying Tivo, would you know if that IntellipH motor can be run backwards for a second or two without harm?
Flying Tivo
TFP Guide
- Jan 24, 2017
- 2,959
- Pool Size
- 7500
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
As i understand its a brushed motor, so it can run both ways depending on polarity. @Steve_from_TX does your Intellicenter have the SWG transformer integrated? You already spent way much than needed and that is well above my paygrade. What i did is take power from the SWG board 29VDC ran it through a relay using relay 1 pump power to activate relay 2 as a safe guard. Probably spent 10 bucks in wiring. The downside of this setup(Mine is an ET) is the timer only run for 1 minute minimum. So my schedule runs 1 min 3 times a week. My pump runs around 300ml per minute with 15 baume.
Flying Tivo
TFP Guide
- Jan 24, 2017
- 2,959
- Pool Size
- 7500
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,883
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
My last post was answering a question for @mskressin, not @Steve_from_TX. Sorry, we confused things with a bit of a hijack. So Felipe, we don't know yet that mskressin has a pool automation controller or not. Not sure we know Steve_from_TX does either. So we can't yet recommend the tricks you and I used. For now, mskressin is trying to determine which of his two IpH pump motor wires are positive and negative.
Thanks for the info. I purchased the tank and pump only. My Arduino controller will toggle the 24 volts via a relay when the pH level gets high as measured by my ioPool ECO monitor every 15 minutes. My Arduino controller also controls the pump and SWG so I can turn off the SWG when dispensing acid and also make sure the pump is running while dispensing acid. The good news is that since the Arduino is controlling the acid pump relay, I can have it dispense only the amount of acid that is needed. The trick is to figure out the acid pump run time for each tenth of the pH level. But once I get that dialed in, I should be able to maintain a constant 7.4 pH level as long as I keep acid in the tank.
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