Current In Water

[Orion7319]

It needs to be bonded to the rebar in the concrete slab around the pool. Dirt don't matter the concrete is in contact with the dirt and concrete conducts. Tie to the rebar in the slab.

You need a minimum of 4 points around the pool connected to the bonding grid. Code states "The bonding grid must comply with (a) or (b) and be attached to the conductive pool reinforcing steel at a minimum of four points uniformly spaced around the perimeter of the walls of a pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub." If you do not have 4 points uniformly spaced then they need to be installed.

Could this be the issue maybe time will tell.

Boy I hope this is the fix because that's an expensive maybe..

Edit: Wait, just looked and it says you have a vinyl pool. I assumed when you said wall you were talking about the pool wall. If not the pool wall then what wall? Is there concrete behind the vinyl?

Sounds to me like he cut a trench in his concrete deck near the pool and he found a wire from the steel frame of the pool.

 

[NowintersinAZ]

Sounds to me like he cut a trench in his concrete deck near the pool and he found a wire from the steel frame of the pool.

He typed "a wire" singular if the pool wall is concrete and it has rebar there needs to at least 4 points around the pool wall ties to the bonding grid.

 

[spencia98gt]

It needs to be bonded to the rebar in the concrete slab around the pool. Dirt don't matter the concrete is in contact with the dirt and concrete conducts. Tie to the rebar in the slab.

You need a minimum of 4 points around the pool connected to the bonding grid. Code states "The bonding grid must comply with (a) or (b) and be attached to the conductive pool reinforcing steel at a minimum of four points uniformly spaced around the perimeter of the walls of a pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub." If you do not have 4 points uniformly spaced then they need to be installed.

Could this be the issue maybe time will tell.

Boy I hope this is the fix because that's an expensive maybe..

Edit: Wait, just looked and it says you have a vinyl pool. I assumed when you said wall you were talking about the pool wall. If not the pool wall then what wall? Is there concrete behind the vinyl?

Yes it’s a vinyl liner but has concrete walls. Not sure if that’s unusual or not. But I tied in to about 10 pieces of rebar in the walls all around the pool just to be safe.

 

[Plettschner]

Did they cut through the rebar when they cut the concrete?

 

[spencia98gt]

There was no rebar in the concrete decking just the concrete pool walls.

 

[NowintersinAZ]

There was no rebar in the concrete decking just the concrete pool walls.

If no rebar then
the bonding conductor must follow the contour of the perimeter surface.
Bonding conductor must be 18 to 24 in. from the inside walls of the pool.
Bonding conductor must be secured within or under the perimeter surface 4 to 6 in. below the subgrade.

 

[Plettschner]

How wide is the concrete cut out? Can you make a grid of sorts in the space? Also, will you be able to tie your ladders and railings into this new bonding?

 

[Plettschner]

Something like this.

 

[Plettschner]

As opposed to this:

 

[NowintersinAZ]

As opposed to this:

680.26 (B)(2) Perimeter Surfaces states.
680.26 (B)(2)(a) you will use rebar if it's available.
IF not one of the next two shall be used.
680.26 (B)(2)(b) If reinforced steel is not available a copper ring can be used
OR
680.26(B)(2)(c) Copper grid.

NEC 2020 allows 3 ways to create the equipotential plane, rebar, copper ring, or a copper grid.

 

[Plettschner]

680.26 (B)(2) Perimeter Surfaces.
680.26 (B) (2) (a) you will use rebar if it's available.
IF not one of the next two shall be used.
680.26 (B)(2)(b) If reinforced steel is not available a copper ring can be used
OR
680.26(B)(2)(c) Copper grid.

NEC 2020 allows 3 ways to create the equipotential plane, rebar, copper ring, or a copper grid.

Yep. I was thinking the grid to get more contact with the soil/concrete than just a single wire.

 

[NowintersinAZ]

Yep. I was thinking the grid to get more contact with the soil/concrete than just a single wire.

Since it's a concrete pad myself I would run a ring inside the concrete pad as long as the pad is 3 or more feet from the edge of the pool. Since concrete conducts electricity I would save money on the copper and use the concrete as part of the equipotential plane. I have not priced copper in some time now but I bet it still expensive.

I am willing to bet that in 2023 code the ring will be gone. jm .02

 

[spencia98gt]

It needs to attach to your pool at 4 points (coping), pool light niches, pool handrail anchors, pool ladder anchors, and to the rebar or re-enforcing wire in the concrete if present...then back to the pump equipment. The wire itself can be in the dirt in places and in the concrete in places and that's perfectly fine as long it it is connected to all the important things along the path.

 

[spencia98gt]

Sorry I didn’t mean to copy and paste what you previously said. I meant to say previously there was no rebar in the concrete decking but they just added these dowels today before they poured concrete back in the trench. Now these are just individual pieces that aren’t tied together so does my bonding wire need to attach to some of them now?

 

[spencia98gt]

Now could stray voltage hit those rebar dowels and not my copper wire since they aren’t connected?

 

[spencia98gt]

He probably just put in 75 of them so connecting to each of them would be a pain and costly.

 

[NowintersinAZ]

rebar in concrete around pools is supposed to be tied together. now you are getting into an area that really should be presented to the AHJ (inspector)

 

[spencia98gt]

Well he said he’s just adding these little pieces to help support the new concrete and keep it attached to the old concrete

 

[NowintersinAZ]

Well he said he’s just adding these little pieces to help support the new concrete and keep it attached to the old concrete

I get that, you asked a question "Now these are just individual pieces that aren’t tied together so does my bonding wire need to attach to some of them now?" I answered honestly what I thought. I can't change my answer to suit what you want to do.

I'm not being snarky just honest, you're the owner you need to decide what you're going to do. There are somethings that should not be answered here and I feel this is one of them.

Here is my thought Equipotential Plane is for safety are you cutting corners by not tying them all together?

Are you making it safer by what you are doing?

Have you made sure ALL other bonds are made and secure?

Trench is open now would be the time to make things right if they are not.

 

[phonedave]

Well he said he’s just adding these little pieces to help support the new concrete and keep it attached to the old concrete

Now could stray voltage hit those rebar dowels and not my copper wire since they aren’t connected?

Stray voltage does not "hit" something. It is not as if stray voltage is zipping around looking for a nice chuck of steel to manifest itself it.

Sometimes it helps to think of electricity as water. This is going to be a little general not quite technically factual, but it will help (I hope)

Think of electrons like water. Water wants to find its' own level. So do electrons. If I have water in my pool and it is higher than my pump, if I open my pump skimmer lid the water is going to start running through my pipes and come out the lid.

Electrons are the same way. If I have a large collection of electrons somewhere and a small connection elsewhere, and I connect the two with a pipe, the electrons are going to run through the pipe. For electrons, the pipes are conductors - your bond wire. That is why you bond the pool water, the metal on the equipment, the metal around the pool (stairs, lights, etc) the pool itself (rebar or pool walls for ABG) and the rebar grid in your slab. You are connecting all of that stuff with an electric "pipe" so that the electron density in all of those things evens out. If you do not do that, and more electrons collect in one place than in an other and you touch both, then you become the pipe - and that hurts.

So for your rebar pins, I would not worry about it. Normal rebar in a slab is all tied together, it is one large bonded system. Concrete itself is conductive (more than the earth it is on at times - look up a Ufer ground). The worry with a large rebar mat is that it is a large highly conductive mesh, that at times can become exposed. Your dowels should not be an issue at all. I myself would not worry about bonding those.