I just moved into this house in January and we noticed the issue the first time we got in the pool. Previous owner said he didn’t use the pool last year at all and come to find out his neighbor said he hadn’t used the pool in the last 3 years. So I’m wondering if that’s coincidence or if he is experienced the problem too and gave up on tryin to fix it. So long story short I have no idea how long this has been going on.
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- Thread starter spencia98gt
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drsipe
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- Jul 24, 2020
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Sorry, I missed that you checked with the main breaker open.
One of the earlier posters Plettschner posted a video for how to check for ground potential and pool bonding. From the sound of it, you either have voltage leakage in the ground or you have pool bonding issues. Either way the video shows how to check both.
- Jun 26, 2017
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That video is too awesome. I'm geeking out on it.
Per the NEC, the only connection point that the Neutral and Ground can be bonded together is at the first disconnect point in the service. After that, all panels, outlets and connections have to be separate with the neutral not bonded ( floating). This is why sub panels will have 4 wire cables run between them. All sub panels down stream from the main disconnect have to have the neutral bar isolated as well.
Dan
Dan
Neutrals and grounds are only bonded at the main panel. They are separate at the sub panel. I only disconnect the ground completely from the sub panel to get the voltage to go away.
Ok so here’s the latest update. I got a new main panel installed and also got the power company out here and they cut power to my transformer and 3 others in the general vicinity and he was still getting close to 3 volts on my ground wire he was also getting the same thing on the bonding wire which he said means they are connected somewhere. He said that they should be but I thought they were supposed to be separate. But then I just read today that the fact that you bond the pump and it has a ground wire connected to it then technically the bonding grid and the ground are connected via the metal housing. Does that all sound right? He said he’s going to talk to a few more of their engineers and get back to me but said we may never find the source of this voltage. That being said I feel like I’m back to square one. So for everyone that has said this is still a bonding issue my question is this. If I cut out a 10” wide trench in the concrete all around the pool about 24” from the pool wall and install a new grid will that fix the shocking problem? It seems like the voltage will still be there as it’s coming in via the ground wire but will we no longer be able to feel it when touching the wet concrete since everything should be at the same potential? I was hoping to get rid of the voltage but if that’s impossible will a new bonding grid mask it? If so, I was intending a single 8 gauge copper wire around the entire pool and connect it to 4 corners of the pool walls if they are metal(don’t know what they are currently) and then tie it back to the light niche and all of the equipment. I plan to cut out and remove the sleeves for the ladder and rails all together so I no longer have to worry about them. I’ve read the stainless ring around the light should be enough to bond the water. All that being said I’ve also read a single copper wire isn’t nearly as safe as a 3ft grid even though code says it’s ok. Being that I currently have a shocking problem I want to make sure whatever I install will be enough to mask the issue. Or should I cut a wider trench say 24”-36” wide and install a copper grid to be safe? If so, how close to the edge of the pool wall should it be? Concrete guys are worried about romuving the concrete directly above the pool walls because they don’t know what kind of condition they are in and would worry they could collapse. No clue if that would happen or not. I just don’t understand if the bonding wire/grid prevents you from being shocked directly on top of it or also anything inside of it so it would help mask the concrete all they way to the pool wall?? How does it all work. Sorry I know this is a novel…
Orion7319
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- Jul 1, 2020
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I don’t know much about bonding myself, but I did read that the bond and ground could be connected though the pump. There were videos others posted in this thread and I posted earlier how to check to see if your pool is properly bonded. What kind of pump do you have? If the bond checks out OK and you have an older single speed pump you could see if replacing the pump works. Or I suppose you could simply kill power to your pump, disconnect it’s ground with the power to the pump still off and see if that fixes it. But wait before an actual electrician chimes in on that one, I could be way off base as this is well outside of my wheel house.
The bonding wire that is connected to the housing of your pump and the ground wire that runs to your pump are bonded together if they are connected properly.
If your concrete deck and the water in your pool are bonded you should not see any voltage between the two. Perhaps you might want to try a water bond fitting in your pump plumbing. This should ensure that everything is at the same potential if your concrete deck is bonded. In the past this would be done with the wet niche fixture but maybe there is not a good connection there.
I dont think a new bonding ring around your pool would help any more than just making a rebar and the pool metal wall connection somewhere.
Sorry you have to go through this frustrating mess.
If your concrete deck and the water in your pool are bonded you should not see any voltage between the two. Perhaps you might want to try a water bond fitting in your pump plumbing. This should ensure that everything is at the same potential if your concrete deck is bonded. In the past this would be done with the wet niche fixture but maybe there is not a good connection there.
I dont think a new bonding ring around your pool would help any more than just making a rebar and the pool metal wall connection somewhere.
Sorry you have to go through this frustrating mess.
Yeah it’s definitely disheartening to say the least. The pool is a big reason we bought the house and we haven’t even been able to use it so my wife and kids are going crazy. I feel like the light is a good connection though because the second I connect the bonding wire to the light then voltage is introduced into the water. That’s where I’m kind of confused with the bonding thing. If everything including the cement were bonded correctly would that voltage not be there at all or would I just not feel it or would it not matter if it was bonded correctly at all and I would still feel it if it’s coming in through that bonding wire or the ground wire when connected?
- Jun 26, 2017
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- Salt Water Generator
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- CircuPool Edge-40
So you have 3 volts on your neutral at your main panel? With power off?
borjis
LifeTime Supporter
I'm not sure I'd take the electricians word as gospel, when he said the issue may never be found. Someone else dealing with a similar situation got it solved eventually, took about a year. Iirc they found a street light nearby that was the voltage leak source. Do have any of those on your block?
Hang in there!
Hang in there!
- Jun 26, 2017
- 234
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- 14750
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- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool Edge-40
Plettschner
Gold Supporter
Link to thread in this post: Stray Voltage in Pool
I may have missed it, sorry if I did. Check continuity of the equipotential bonding grid and the metal housing of the pump motor and other equipment associated with the flow of water. i.e. heater if you have one. Have you taken a long enough piece of wire #14 thhn would suffice. Connect one end of your meter (set to continuity) to the connection point on the pump motor and the wire to the other lead of the meter and walk around the pool and touch all the metal parts around the pool and in the pool. This can tell you if any piece of equipment or structure is not connected to the grid. Has the pump been replaced if it has been make sure your wire has been reconnected to the metal housing of the pump.
You can get stray voltages from other sources that's why they have to set up equipotential planes in barns because cows were getting shocked and not milking. The equipotential plane around your pool if connected properly should remove all stray voltages. Your equipotential plane needs to go somewhere or it can't function to remove stray voltages or set everything to an equal potential. IF there are no connections the grid is floating it is of no use to eliminate stray voltages. It is not required to be extended to an equipment grounding conductor unless you have a double insulated pump motor and no other equipment in the system. In a sense you are required to indirectly conect it to an EGC through the metal housings of the equipment or if you are using a double insulated pump motor then you are required to connect it directly to the EGC of the motor circuit if there is no other equipment connected to an EGC. So yes it has to be tied indirectly or directly tied to the EGC under certain circumstances.
680.26(b)(6)(a) Double-Insulated Water Pump Motors. Where a doubleinsulated
water pump motor is installed under the provisions of
this rule, a solid 8 AWG copper conductor of sufficient length
to make a bonding connection to a replacement motor shall be
extended from the bonding grid to an accessible point in the
vicinity of the pool pump motor. Where there is no connection
between the swimming pool bonding grid and the equipment
grounding system for the premises, this bonding conductor
shall be connected to the equipment grounding conductor of
the motor circuit.
I would try a jumper wire from the grid to the ground bar of the sub panel and see if the voltage drops.
I have seen and dealt with harmonics in a building with a cube farm. Where one floor had 2.5 volts between the neutral and the EGC (not the same as your bonding grid around the pool but still the same potential because they should be connected at the pump motor) on the 3rd harmonic 180 Hz not the 60Hz the power company supplies. All electronic equipment computers, leds under cabinet lighting & lamps in fixtures if leds or compact fluorescent, electronic ballasts, TVs, stereos everything electronic will cause this voltage on the third harmonic. If you live near a google or amazon lets say they could be pouring this back onto the power grid if they do not have the proper filters to remove it. NOT saying this is the answer just something to consider.
Mike Holt testing bonding.
NEC for swimming pools.
You can get stray voltages from other sources that's why they have to set up equipotential planes in barns because cows were getting shocked and not milking. The equipotential plane around your pool if connected properly should remove all stray voltages. Your equipotential plane needs to go somewhere or it can't function to remove stray voltages or set everything to an equal potential. IF there are no connections the grid is floating it is of no use to eliminate stray voltages. It is not required to be extended to an equipment grounding conductor unless you have a double insulated pump motor and no other equipment in the system. In a sense you are required to indirectly conect it to an EGC through the metal housings of the equipment or if you are using a double insulated pump motor then you are required to connect it directly to the EGC of the motor circuit if there is no other equipment connected to an EGC. So yes it has to be tied indirectly or directly tied to the EGC under certain circumstances.
680.26(b)(6)(a) Double-Insulated Water Pump Motors. Where a doubleinsulated
water pump motor is installed under the provisions of
this rule, a solid 8 AWG copper conductor of sufficient length
to make a bonding connection to a replacement motor shall be
extended from the bonding grid to an accessible point in the
vicinity of the pool pump motor. Where there is no connection
between the swimming pool bonding grid and the equipment
grounding system for the premises, this bonding conductor
shall be connected to the equipment grounding conductor of
the motor circuit.
I would try a jumper wire from the grid to the ground bar of the sub panel and see if the voltage drops.
I have seen and dealt with harmonics in a building with a cube farm. Where one floor had 2.5 volts between the neutral and the EGC (not the same as your bonding grid around the pool but still the same potential because they should be connected at the pump motor) on the 3rd harmonic 180 Hz not the 60Hz the power company supplies. All electronic equipment computers, leds under cabinet lighting & lamps in fixtures if leds or compact fluorescent, electronic ballasts, TVs, stereos everything electronic will cause this voltage on the third harmonic. If you live near a google or amazon lets say they could be pouring this back onto the power grid if they do not have the proper filters to remove it. NOT saying this is the answer just something to consider.
Mike Holt testing bonding.
NEC for swimming pools.
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Do you have a power backup supply on a computer or any other equipment in the house? This of course would have turned on when the power went down and could be leaking. Are there solar panels connected to the house?
there were some circumstances where a EGC and neutral were bonded in a piece of equipment in a home. i.e. a range and a cloths dryer but it would have to be pretty old to be like this.
You are not back to square one, because you know many things it is not and that is a step forward to knowing what it is.
Don't do that yet until all other courses are exhausted. That is a last ditch effort to try and fix the problem. Start by testing the grid to make sure all items are connected to the grid and the grid is connected to the EGC of the pump motor through the housing or directly connected. Including in the water, obviously lift the ground from the house to prevent a shock. Thinking about this you could attach the wire to the ground bar in the sub panel, connect the other end of the wire to one of the meter leads and set the meter to continuity, then carry the meter with you as you test everything that should be connected to the grid with the other lead. The meter should either beep or show zero ohms.
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- Nov 7, 2018
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Speaking of unknown sources, do you happen to have any high tension power lines near by? I know out in our neck of the woods there have been issues with livestock discussed at some community get togethers. Here is some info on stray voltage that might give you some ideas.
www.ecofarmingdaily.com
Detecting and Understanding Stray Voltage | EcoFarming Daily
Electric fencing is rarely a problem, in general, but if wired wrong it can be devastating.
www.ecofarmingdaily.com
I once had a customer with a old PBX that all of sudden would not work with the DID trunks we were supplying them. It had worked for years with no issue. They had a newer PBX for a different part of the building and the trunks worked just fine with that PBX.
My tech and I walked the cable all the way back the CO, checking capacitor banks, and making sure all of the MGN bonds were in place. Still did not fix the issue.
We had one of the "super power techs" in the company come out and ride the pole line with his array of very expensive meters. Turns out that there was a new factory down the street on three phase service that was pulling a lot more load on one of the phases than the other two. The imbalanced load on the pole line was causing an induced current in our cable, which was just enough foreign voltage to cause the old school PBX the customer was using to freak out.
No not yet. Decided to move forward the cutting the concrete and Just had concrete trench cut around the pool this week and I just installed a new bonding wire around the entire thing. I did find a wire connecting to the wall and some metal fittings in some spots but not all the way around the pool and I’m wondering if that was the issue? Anyways They will be back tomorrow to fill in the trench with concrete. I do have a question though. Does the bonding wire need to be touching the dirt and the concrete once poured? I ask because I used 6 gauge thick wire so it’s hard to get it to lay perfectly flat on the dirt. There are areas where it just floats in the air but want to make sure that’s ok. Wasn’t sure if the dirt is the most important thing it’s touching or that it just needs to be inside the concrete?
It needs to be bonded to the rebar in the concrete slab around the pool. Dirt don't matter the concrete is in contact with the dirt and concrete conducts. Tie to the rebar in the slab.
You need a minimum of 4 points around the pool connected to the bonding grid. Code states "The bonding grid must comply with (a) or (b) and be attached to the conductive pool reinforcing steel at a minimum of four points uniformly spaced around the perimeter of the walls of a pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub." If you do not have 4 points uniformly spaced then they need to be installed.
Could this be the issue maybe time will tell.
Boy I hope this is the fix because that's an expensive maybe..
Edit: Wait, just looked and it says you have a vinyl pool. I assumed when you said wall you were talking about the pool wall. If not the pool wall then what wall? Is there concrete behind the vinyl?
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