Coping and Tile Crew Cut Through Ground or Bonding Wire Basically Around Entire Perimeter!

MeowMeow724

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2019
159
FL
I just checked out the coping now that it is done... and I noticed that the crew that did it has CUT the ground or bonding wire in MANY places around the entire pool (I lost count!!) and therefore there is now no continuity. I honestly don't know if it's a grounding or bonding wire.. so I feel stupid. But it's the copper wire that was put all around the pool in one of the first phases when they put in the shell framing.

That sounds extremely bad to me..... but I don't know a thing.
I sent the pics and a message to our project manager, and will see what he says. He probably thinks I am nuts.

But how are they going to fix that? It is cut in at least 6 places around the perimeter of the pool!! And its already backfilled so it's not like you can just easily run new wire.

I don't want our PM to tell me another "that's normal" as he has been saying to a lot of my questions along the way. This one REALLY concerns me and thus I am here... what is the RIGHT way for them to fix this? I want to be educated and demand they fix it RIGHT and not halfway. Please help! :oops:IMG_20190922_182645903.jpgIMG_20190922_182451434.jpg
 
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Jimrahbe

Mod Squad
TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
Jul 7, 2014
14,467
Bedford, TX
724,

I suspect these are just bonding wires that will be used to tie into whatever decking you will be getting...

Let's see what one of our construction experts have to say... @bdavis466

Thanks,

Jim R.
 

MeowMeow724

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2019
159
FL
Thanks! You're probably right, and I don't know the difference between them.
Can you ease my mind a little by letting me know the difference in layman's terms?
Either type of wire that it is, I'm assuming it's not so great that it's been cut in at least TEN places. 😬
 

ajw22

Gold Supporter
TFP Guide
Jul 21, 2013
10,562
Northern NJ
I think those are pigttails to be connected to the deck rebar.

You have any earlier pics showing the wires before the concrete covered it?

See what your PM says.
 

MeowMeow724

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2019
159
FL
Do these pics help?
Sorry for the weird screenshot pics.. I can't upload the actual pics here because the file size is too large.

PM so far just said "I let them know", and he's probably offline for the night.
I asked him who "them" are and how is it going to be fixed, because being cut in at least 10 places (with no faith there aren't more cuts I didn't see yet) I'd think the wire is useless at that point.
I also think a lot of it was left under the coping when that was seated with mortar.

If they are the pigtails to be connected to the rebar, which I believe they were connected to the rebar; what is its purpose and what should I ensure they do to correct it the "right" way?
 

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Jimrahbe

Mod Squad
TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
Jul 7, 2014
14,467
Bedford, TX
More info for you... Bonding vs Grounding - Trouble Free Pool

Why do you assume that everyone working on your pool has no clue what they are doing??? Most pool subs know exactly what they are doing and often start things that the next crew will finish.. So at first it looks like something is only half done, but in truth it has to be started at one stage of the build and then finished by another sub at another stage of the build..

I do think it is a good idea to ask your pool builder when you have questions, but I suggest you frame them in a more positive light.. Just a thought.. :mrgreen:

Thanks,

Jim R.
 
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MeowMeow724

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2019
159
FL
Thanks for the link--- very helpful! I was searching the forums for topics but always forget about all of the lovely and helpful articles on here.

"Bonding is about making sure that any electrical current that is present around the pool goes through the bonding wire instead of going through you."
and;
"Bonding is more complex, with numerous pool specific rules in the electrical code. The goal of bonding is to prevent electrical current from flowing through people who are in, or touching, the water."
from: Bonding vs Grounding - Trouble Free Pool
----These sentences from the article you linked are exactly why I felt like it was very important that wire be continuous and not broken in 10 + places. :mrgreen:

In this circumstance, I will say to my understanding that wire requires continuity, and has to do with electrical for a huge tub of water I'll be swimming in, and it seems awfully careless to cut in 10+ places. I don't think that's normal process or sub starting something another will finish in this circumstance; in others, yes, definitely!

I've unfortunately had the pleasure of working with lots of subs and contractors who don't give a hoot and cost me a lot of $ and headaches in the end; no matter how much research and vetting I've done before hiring. So I may jump the gun a little. 😬 My house is an example.. award winning builder, blah blah, that cut corners along the way when that is the antithesis of their reputation. 🙄
 
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MeowMeow724

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2019
159
FL
Just spoke with the PM.
He said it's no big deal and happens more often than we may know. And that the bonding and grounding wire are the same thing.....?
He said it's not the grounding wire for the electrical; that is at the panel box, and the one going around the pool is just for residual.

He said he or someone else will come out and fix it; by tying the pieces together and connecting them with connectors.
Should I ask him to get someone else (an electrician?) to do it, or?

He did say there was some kind of disagreement between he and the contractors that did the coping and tile; they say they didn't do it... but no one else could have. They definitely did it while they were sawing off the excess stone to make the rounded edges- NO question about that. It was in fine shape just before they came and they were the only ones working on my pool this weekend, and using saws right around the perimeter. Sooo.. yeah.. classic "it wasn't me!"
 
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ajw22

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Jul 21, 2013
10,562
Northern NJ
They could use a split-bolt or bonding clamp and then seal the whole thing in liquid electrical tape, or use an underground splice for conductors that you can buy at Lowes or Home Depot etc.

The bond wire is going to be underground. You don’t want corrosion building up at the splices causing resistance which can compromise the effectiveness of the bonding grid.

Did you have electrical and rebar inspections before the gunite was poured? I would consult with your town electrical inspector and ask if he would approve a bonding grid with 10 splices.
 
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MeowMeow724

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2019
159
FL
They did inspect it prior to backfill, and they said all passed. I just called the city planning office asking to speak with an inspector, but had to leave a message. I am going to visit their office in a bit. Hopefully there is someone I can talk to when I go.

We are going to meet up for decking layout soon, so hopefully I can reach an inspector ASAP.
 

JamesW

TFP Expert
Mar 2, 2011
16,542
There is no requirement in the code that says that the bond wire has to be continuous with no splices.

Splices are acceptable as long as they are listed for the purpose.

There should be an electrician of record on the permit named as being responsible for the bond wire. You need to inform them about the cuts and they need to evaluate the situation and correct it as needed.
 

MeowMeow724

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2019
159
FL
There is no requirement in the code that says that the bond wire has to be continuous with no splices.

Splices are acceptable as long as they are listed for the purpose.

There should be an electrician of record on the permit named as being responsible for the bond wire. You need to inform them about the cuts and they need to evaluate the situation and correct it as needed.
The bond wire going around the pool perimeter was done by the same group that framed the pool; but the electrician may have been there doing it and I just never spoke with them. There were some people there that I did not see after the first few hours.
I haven't spoken with the electrician yet, but PM did say they would call me when they were going to run the power for the pump and such, so I could speak with them then but that might not be in time as the decking is the next step.
 

MeowMeow724

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2019
159
FL
Tell them that you need to have the electrician check it out right away.
I will ask them that. The electrician comes from a few hours away and stacks jobs in our area so I am not sure when they will be coming.
I did already reach out to the city inspector based on a suggestion/comment above; so I probably opened up a can of worms with that. :oops:
 

Rich D

Bronze Supporter
Aug 3, 2018
575
MA
As Jim said I would keep it in a positive light. To me it would appear there is a main bonding wire running all the way around the perimeter of the pool down 3 to 4 ft in which all these whips are connected too. That is obviously already bonded to your shell rebar. so there would be no reason to reconnect it up to the pool beam rebar because the rebar is all connected. So I would assume they simply connected it up there to hold it above grade so it can be attached to the deck rebar in the future. in other words it doesn't necessarily have to stay connected to the pool beam part.

Just guessing... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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JamesW

TFP Expert
Mar 2, 2011
16,542
If the wires are cut flush with the stone, it's going to be difficult to reconnect everything.

It needs to be done correctly. The project manager should take care of it.
 

JamesW

TFP Expert
Mar 2, 2011
16,542
Are the pavers being set on sand or mortared down to a concrete base?

A concrete base would get rebar or wire mesh.

For a sand base, I would recommend a wire mesh below the sand to create a better grid.
 

MeowMeow724

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2019
159
FL
If the wires are cut flush with the stone, it's going to be difficult to reconnect everything.

It needs to be done correctly. The project manager should take care of it.
Some of them are, yes.. sections are missing even. That is how I was clued in to it being cut anywhere; I found a section of it, probably at least 2-3 feet long in the rubble pile of the cut stone they set to throw out. I am concerned they won't even be able to find all of the connections, to be honest.

JamesW said:
Are the pavers being set on sand or mortared down to a concrete base?

A concrete base would get rebar or wire mesh.

For a sand base, I would recommend a wire mesh below the sand to create a better grid.
They do a crushed stone and sand (polymeric), I believe. I am not 100%, but I do not think there will be any mesh grid but I do not know the entire process.

If the wires are cut flush with the stone, it's going to be difficult to reconnect everything.

It needs to be done correctly. The project manager should take care of it.
The PM said he would take care of it; and him taking care of it means he (or someone else) will splice it all back together, not replace the whole wire. I did specifically ask if the wire would be replaced and he said no, and proceeded to say how it's not a big deal and it is just a bonding wire for the pool, not the electrical. 🤷‍♀️
 
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JamesW

TFP Expert
Mar 2, 2011
16,542
You should have an electrician verify that the bonding is all correct by testing it.

The bonding is a big deal. They didn't just make up the requirement out of thin air.

It needs to be done correctly. If someone cut the wires, the integrity has been compromised. It needs to checked by someone competent.

I would recommend that you have a copper grid installed beneath the pavers.

https://m.erico.com/category.html?category=R2439
 
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