Converting after following terrible advice

[scott407]

After pumping out a lot of water...

Readings from TF-100 Test Kit:

PH : 7.2 TA:130 FC:9 CC:2 CYA: 25ish.....

Pool Math says put in 258 oz of 10% bleach.

Do I add it now and check again before going to bed and bring it back up to 15ppm in the morning or wait for the weekend to start?

 

[scott407]

After pumping out a lot of water...

Readings from TF-100 Test Kit:

PH : 7.2 TA:130 FC:9 CC:2 CYA: 25ish.....

Pool Math says put in 258 oz of 10% bleach.

Do I add it now and check again before going to bed and bring it back up to 15ppm in the morning or wait for the weekend to start?

Added 2 gallons of 10% (fresh) chlorine last night.

Morning reading.

FC-17
CC-2.5
PH-7.5

Still green tint in deep end.

My head hurts.....

 

[Texas Splash]

At least your CYA is not as high as initially feared. I'm sure the water exchange had a lot to do with that. Certainly maintain that FC of at least 15. Based on the additional CYA, Lee will let you know if the FC needs to be any higher to compensate. The elevated CC is expected as the goo is being broken-down for oxidation. Now that your FC is over 10, you can stop testing pH until after the conversion.

 

[domct203]

Added 2 gallons of 10% (fresh) chlorine last night.

Morning reading.

FC-17
CC-2.5
PH-7.5

Still green tiny in deep end.

My head hurts.....

You should be maintaining a continuous FC of 15ppm the best you can. Any time the FC goes below 15ppm the process slows.

[edit to correct content]

 

[YippeeSkippy]

Hey there Scott, I just wanted to say hi to a fellow Georgian and let you know that you'll be so pleased you've done this conversion once over.

Your pool will *sparkle* like it never has before!

You're doing fine.

Maddie

 

[Leebo]

Something isn’t adding up and I’d like to quickly recap,

-Last winter you added 4 bags of granular chlorine.
-This winter you’ve used 3 or 4 pucks
- You’ve also added a few gallons of liquid chlorine
- You did a drain/refill this Spring

Is all of this correct? If so can you please double check your CYA result as a 25ppm CYA level will greatly hold you back.

 

[scott407]

This spring I added stabilizer. That is why the CYA was at 50 when I started this debacle.

I was expecting the FC level to be much lower this morning when I checked.

Something isn’t adding up and I’d like to quickly recap,

-Last winter you added 4 bags of granular chlorine.
-This winter you’ve used 3 or 4 pucks
- You’ve also added a few gallons of liquid chlorine
- You did a drain/refill this Spring

Is all of this correct? If so can you please double check your CYA result as a 25ppm CYA level will greatly hold you back.

 

[Donldson]

The issue here is that stabilizer significantly reduces the speed at which the FC can oxidize the biguanide in the water. That is why your FC isn't dropping as fast as you thought it would, but it also means this process is going to take a very long time. When someone starts the conversion with 0 CYA the chlorine is used up very quickly, but it is used up destroying the biguanide and making quick progress. With CYA in the water the end part of the process where the water looks ok-ish but you still don't pass an OCLT and have high CC numbers will linger for weeks or more.

It's just not a good situation and has really worn people down in the past, so much to the point where we typically tell someone that if there is CYA in their water to just dump all of it so they can avoid that struggle.

 

[scott407]

The issue here is that stabilizer significantly reduces the speed at which the FC can oxidize the biguanide in the water. That is why your FC isn't dropping as fast as you thought it would, but it also means this process is going to take a very long time. When someone starts the conversion with 0 CYA the chlorine is used up very quickly, but it is used up destroying the biguanide and making quick progress. With CYA in the water the end part of the process where the water looks ok-ish but you still don't pass an OCLT and have high CC numbers will linger for weeks or more.

It's just not a good situation and has really worn people down in the past, so much to the point where we typically tell someone that if there is CYA in their water to just dump all of it so they can avoid that struggle.

Just to clarify. Either I dump the whole pool, swap sand, start brand new and skip the conversion, or I have to deal with fuzzy water for several weeks until the chlorine eats the biguanide?

If that's the case, I wish I knew it before I drained and replaced about half the poll couple of days ago. Yikes.

My head is still hurting!?

 

[Texas Splash]

If that's the case, I wish I knew it before I drained and replaced about half the poll couple of days ago. Yikes.

Back in post #8....that was my #1 concern. Any CYA added before the conversion really makes the process more difficult. However you have done a lot to lower the CYA already. If water's not too expensive, you might be better off doing another really good water exchange to get the CYA as close to non-existent as possible. Either way, you'll still need to continue the conversion once water is changed, but it should respond much better as there won't be as much interference from stabilizer. Hang in there Scott.

 

[Leebo]

Lets do one thing first Scott, let’s take a second to step back and change the tide. Seems like every door reviles a new issue, but I always loved solving problems.

Let’s try another set of simple questions.

1. Donyou have an iOS or android device?
2. What does your water look like?
3. Do you happen to have any Baquacil test strips from last year??

 

[scott407]

Lets do one thing first Scott, let’s take a second to step back and change the tide. Seems like every door reviles a new issue, but I always loved solving problems.

Let’s try another set of simple questions.

1. Donyou have an iOS or android device?
2. What does your water look like?
3. Do you happen to have any Baquacil test strips from last year??

Here they are.

 

[scott407]

For anyone keeping score.

Tonight's readings

FC 16
CC 2

 

[Texas Splash]

Scott, those results are promising. Curious to see what this morning's results are based on the additional info Lee provided yesterday evening with the elevated FC trial. Can you tell us this morning's:
FC:
CC:
Color/Condition of Water:

Thanks!

 

[scott407]

There was no immediate reaction to to big addition of bleach.

FC 33.5
CC 2.5
Deep end is still green tint, but its all clear to the bottom.

I plan to vacuum and brush today. And wait for more biguanide to get eaten.

 

[Texas Splash]

Roger that! Sounds good. Those morning numbers are what we were hoping to see. Looks like it's just going to take some time now. Keep us posted on any significant changes and have a great day Scott. It's Friday!

 

[Leebo]

So, full discloser. We aren’t 110% sure what’s happening.

One of two things are occurring and we don’t know what. The first thing that we’re all hoping for is the water has very little Baqua left and the extra FC is going to break down the last bit. Seeing no change in color, no huge jump in your CC’s, and no huge drop in your FC level is very promising. I’m really crossing my fingers your first drain/refill combined with a very low Baqua level at the start did most the work for you. That said, there is an explanation B that could be occurring. On the flip side you “may” not be adding enough chlorine. The chlorine that’s being added MAY not be enough to cause any breakdown to occur. The fact we’re not seeing anything may mean simply nothing is happening. We simply don’t know for sure. You maybe wasting your time/money doing nothing. That said, PLEASE don’t think about increasing your FC even higher to see. Please don’t even think of going above 30ppm. The risk isn’t worth it!!! You do this I’m driving to Tenn and dumping multiple bottles of Baqua back into your pool.

I simply wanted to warn you what maybe occurring. Again, the safest bet is to do another drain/refill to get zero CYA and zero Baqua. That said, that’s a TON of water. The hints were looking for are showing some promising hints. I don’t want to tell you what to do here as you’re in a bind for sure, but I know what I’d do.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

It’s actually 280,000 lbs or 127 tons of water to be exact....

The CYA is, for sure, slowing down all the chlorine oxidizing reactions as that is what CYA does. Even at a low level of 30ppm, CYA provides very substantial buffering of the active chlorine levels. The presence of CYA also tends to push the formation of CCs more towards monochloramine (rather than dichloramine or nitrogen trichloride) and that will persist in water for longer periods of time.

The clear green color bothers me a bit as that is usually a sign of the presence of metals (iron mostly) in the water. Baquacil breakdown usually starts off cloudy green and then clears. Is this pool being refilled with well water or city water? When you backwash your sand filter, is the discharge water brown? Some waded up paper towels or polyfill pillow stuffing in the skimmer could help to capture iron particulates for a visual check.

Have you deep cleaned the sand filter? I saw something earlier about changing the sand and was wondering what the status of the filter is. If we can determine what is tinting your water, then other chemical treatment options may be a possibility (flocculation).

Or, as Lee suggests, simply drain the pool down to 18” or so and refilling with fresh water may make all this guessing and fiddling go away. Fact is you got really bad advice by the previous pool guy that clearly did not understand the chemistry here (as few, if any, of them do) and now you’re working from that hole. Not very many good options here unfortunately.

 

[scott407]

The pool was installed late summer last year. The sand was brand new. The initial dose of Aquasilk was done followed by the peroxide maintenance. An additional maintenance dose of baguanide was done (less than 20 oz. I think) and then peroxide for the rest of the summer. The pool was closed and initially we were going to install a SWG this spring. However we decided to go with chlorine to avoid the initial startup of a SWG this year.

We are using city water. The "cloud of green" did occur last summer at the end of the season because I added liquid chlorine thinking that would help me through the winter. It came and went. When the pool was closed, it was crytsal clear. When I pulled the cover this year, the pool was cloudy but I could still see the drains. When I added the chlorine to get it started, the green tint came.

When I backwash now it is clear, except for the small amount of sand in the sight glass. I did have a "brown" back wash with a foamy slime early on, but none since.

Today I vacuumed the whole pool to waste. I didn't notice any "dust" on the walls or bottom. I did have a frog in the skimmer (RIP) He didnt make it.

My plan at this point is to drain to the top of the first step again again and refill. At that point I will reevaluate the levels. My neighbor who is a long time pool owner suggested flocculating it too. I'm not opposed to that either.

Water here is about $300 for 40k gallons.

It’s actually 280,000 lbs or 127 tons of water to be exact....

The CYA is, for sure, slowing down all the chlorine oxidizing reactions as that is what CYA does. Even at a low level of 30ppm, CYA provides very substantial buffering of the active chlorine levels. The presence of CYA also tends to push the formation of CCs more towards monochloramine (rather than dichloramine or nitrogen trichloride) and that will persist in water for longer periods of time.

The clear green color bothers me a bit as that is usually a sign of the presence of metals (iron mostly) in the water. Baquacil breakdown usually starts off cloudy green and then clears. Is this pool being refilled with well water or city water? When you backwash your sand filter, is the discharge water brown? Some waded up paper towels or polyfill pillow stuffing in the skimmer could help to capture iron particulates for a visual check.

Have you deep cleaned the sand filter? I saw something earlier about changing the sand and was wondering what the status of the filter is. If we can determine what is tinting your water, then other chemical treatment options may be a possibility (flocculation).

Or, as Lee suggests, simply drain the pool down to 18” or so and refilling with fresh water may make all this guessing and fiddling go away. Fact is you got really bad advice by the previous pool guy that clearly did not understand the chemistry here (as few, if any, of them do) and now you’re working from that hole. Not very many good options here unfortunately.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Before draining, how about you try this - Deep Cleaning a Sand Filter

Your CCs may all be stuck in the sand. Deep cleaning may be a good way to get rid of them and let us know where the source of contamination is coming from. You could do a deep clean today, keep your chlorine elevated and then see what your overnight loss looks like.

Up to you...you've certainly been through the ringer with this conversion.