Cloudy pool after phosphate treatment

Babble0n

Member
Jul 11, 2023
15
Boise, ID
Pool Size
20000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Autopilot Digital PPC1 (RC-35)
Hi all, I am a relatively new pool owner and I'm having some real struggles with cloudy water this year. Everything was fine (water was super clear) until I followed the pool store's advice and treated for phosphates (I have since read here and other places that phosphates aren't that big of a deal if your Cl is fine).
The treatment turned the water a cloudy blue and it has not cleared up in almost 2 months now. Every test I have taken since shows proper chemistry (albeit with elevated phosphates), but I cannot get the cloudiness to go away!

I run my pump 24/7 on the following schedule, calculated to move ~60k gal. in 24 hrs.
60gpm x 6 hrs
40gpm x 3 hrs
35gpm x 15 hrs

Last test results:
FC - 2.4
TC - 2.6
pH - 7.7
CH - 320
TA - 140
CYA - 60
NaCl - 3000
Phosphates ~ 1000 (Taylor phosphate test kit, similar to what pool store test shows)

Things I have done:
Following pool store recommendations, treated 4k phosphates with Pool Juice Zero phosphate remover (turned pool from clear and nice to cloudy)
Following pool store recommendations, after 2 days circulating phosphate remover through filter, backwashed and treated with Pool Juice 911 (told it would clear the cloudiness)
1 week later, retest water at pool store, phosphates dropped to about 1.4k - told to basically repeat steps 1 and 2 above, which I did.
Another week passed, no clearing of the water, phosphates down to about 1k.
Overnight chlorine loss tests show 0.5 to 1ppm loss
Tried adding flocculant to settle the suspended particles, after two doses and waiting 48 hours with pump off, no settling occurred, no clearing happened.
Did a major deep clean of the filter using HTH sand cleaner (2 bottles added directly to filter sand, soaked overnight), then backwashed and then performed deep cleaning of sand using garden hose and really moving my arm through the sand to get all the dirt up and out.
Added a bit of DE to my skimmer basket per instructions on this site, opened filter later and observed DE atop sand bed.
Ran for another week or two, no change in water clarity. Was told by pool guy that I should continue to treat the phosphates, added another 4 oz of phosphate remover, waited, no change in clarity, phosphates still just under 1k.

Because the equipment was put in place in 2008, decided maybe filter sand was super old and should be replaced. Removed all filter sand and replaced with bed of pea gravel and 450lbs of new #20 silica sand, ran for 2 days, no changes. (I should note that the pressure and flow really didn't change from the sand change out, so I'm assuming my sand was mostly OK still)

I'm at a loss at what to do next aside from draining the pool. I've read about the SLAM process, and I'd like to try that, but I'm super concerned about the very high levels of Cl going through my heater, which specifically says high Cl over 5ppm will damage it and void the warranty.
The pool is covered almost all the time with an autocover. The dolphin pulls up small bits of calcium flakes ejected from the SWG, some bugs, and some small amounts of plant debris that falls in at the end of the cover, but that's it.

After the suggestion to raise FCL to 5ppm here I've put the SWG back into superboost mode and will test again tomorrow
 
Sounds to me like a SLAM is in order because your water is cloudy. Even though your CC is only .2 and the OCLT < 1, something is still going on. With a CYA of 60, you'd require a FC level of 24ppm for your SLAM which is definitely on the higher end and more costly with the jugs of LC you'd need. I'm sure all of the pros will chime in at some point to lend their expertise but at this point a SLAM seems reasonable. I'd read this SLAM Process over and over to get all of your ducks in a row prior to even starting the process. You'll have to babysit your pool for the first few days at least to maintain a FC level of 24ppm.
 
It's a shame all of this started with advice from the pool store. We see it so often. Now you are playing damage control. :brickwall: You seem to have a K-2006, so step #1 would be to stay far away from the pool store. We know phosphate removes can sometimes cause cloudiness, but your water has been cloudy for much too long. You mentioned doing an OCLT previously. How long ago was that? Did you follow the Overnight Chlorine Loss Test carefully? That is key at this point now that you've replaced sand and so much time has passed. Your last FC test is very low, so I would be sure to follow the FC/CYA Levels to ensure the FC & CYA are balanced together properly for a salt pool. If you ail the Overnight Chlorine Loss Test and need to do a SLAM Process, the elevated FC level will be fine.
 
Is it important to install a bypass valve before the heater if I have to raise the FC to 24? I don't have a lot of room to work with on the inlet/outlet area of the heater and would probably need to install some additional pipe to complete a circuit. PXL_20230712_151452684.jpg
 
Is it important to install a bypass valve before the heater if I have to raise the FC to 24?
I would say no. Your FC-to-CYA ration is perfectly safe. The largest concern for heaters is a low pH and on occasion the CH level. @Newdude, anything else to add?
 
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After running the SWG at 100% overnight I am now at 5.4 FC and 0.2 CC. (I also tested using the recommended 1 heaping scoop and 10ml to compare, and got 5.5 FC and 0.5 CC, so thanks for that tip!).
The pH crept up to 8+, requiring ~6lbs of dry acid to bring it back to 7.2 according to they taylor book.
Other numbers, TA, CH, etc. remain unchanged.

I have to leave town tomorrow night, so I won't be able to continue treatment until next week. Is it advisable to leave the SWG on 100% to keep driving the FC up, or just set it to a maintenance level of ~15% until I return? I'm worried the pH will shoot back up while I'm away if I keep it at 100.
 
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15 plus years ago my pool store recommended I treat for high phosphate levels however based on advice here I did not. The recommendations seems to be if you keep your pool properly chlorinated then it doesn't matter what the phosphate levels are.

I am sure my phosphate levels remain high but I have had no issues with algae etc.

I found out very quickly to get a good test kit, follow the advice here and ignore the pool store. I just use them to purchase liquid chlorine and muriatic acid.

Good luck!
 
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I have returned! Today I tested FC and pH (I believe the others are pretty stable since no water or chemicals were added, and the pool was covered so evap was minimal)
Cloudiness is pretty much the same, I can barely see the tiles on the last step before the floor.

FC: 2.5
CC: <= 0.5
pH: 7.4

When I left I had set the SWG at 14% after I tested on the 12th to maintain the 6.5 ppm FC. Today it was at 0% and 2.5ppm FC, (which is another thing, can you not set a value and maintain it with the AutoPilot?), so I believe that explains the Cl loss, assuming it went to 0 shortly after I left, so lost ~ 1ppm/day
 

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I have returned! Today I tested FC and pH (I believe the others are pretty stable since no water or chemicals were added, and the pool was covered so evap was minimal)
Cloudiness is pretty much the same, I can barely see the tiles on the last step before the floor.

FC: 2.5
CC: <= 0.5
pH: 7.4

When I left I had set the SWG at 14% after I tested on the 12th to maintain the 6.5 ppm FC. Today it was at 0% and 2.5ppm FC, (which is another thing, can you not set a value and maintain it with the AutoPilot?), so I believe that explains the Cl loss, assuming it went to 0 shortly after I left, so lost ~ 1ppm/day
Babble,

Assuming your CYA is still hovering around 60ppm, your FC should be between 4ppm-9ppm with the minimum 3ppm. You're below the minimum and knocking on the door of a SLAM, especially since you still have cloudiness. Why was the SWG set at 14%? If you get a chance, can you modify your signature to add more to your SWG info? Reason being is there are four digital Autopilots listed and they vary in the amount of how many lbs/day of chlorine gas they produce. With that knowledge, you can better set your SWG to distribute the appropriate amount of FC.
 
Agreed that you are flirting with an algae outbreak. You need to get your chlorine up to 4-9 and keep it there. Your SWCG is fine to maintain, but for large increases add some liquid chlorine so you get instant chlorine and do not have to wait for the SWCG to make it.

By my math, 1 gallon of 10% chlorine (available at Walmart, lowes, home depot, etc.) will raise your FC by 5.0.
 
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Assuming your CYA is still hovering around 60ppm
Yes, it is
Why was the SWG set at 14%?
Just a number where I figured it would maintain the 6`ish ppm it had built up to. Based on the experience I have with it, 40% was too high for maintenance without raising the FC.
You're below the minimum and knocking on the door of a SLAM
I just started the process by lowering the pH to 7.2 and raising the FC to 24 with 10% bleach. I retested and found it at 19, so I added another gallon of bleach to get it back to 24. I'll check back on it before bed and again in the morning
 
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FC tested at 22.5 this morning, added another quart of bleach per pool math app
Cranked the SWG up to 100% to compensate for the pool cover being off - will check levels again shortly

Sadly, no clarity changes so far...
 
What does it cost you to drain and refill.
that's a good question, never done it (haven't had it long enough). I assume I can't just empty the pool and there will be some mixing of new and old water, so maybe I need 35k gal. to swap out a 20k pool? I don't know, but if I just do a little math based on my water bill I think it's about $100-$150, very roughly. Plus chemicals to rebalance after, so maybe another $150? Very unsure. I have a bunch of bleach left so my plan right now is to keep up the SLAM and see if anything changes.
 
Unless you have very shallow ground water in your area, you likely can drain it quick with a Rental sump pump from Home Depot and refill not using any excess water. You will need CYA to bring that back up and some acid to lower TA most likely.
 
Tested FC at 24 and CC at 0 this morning. Noticed (and wife confirmed) a slight clarity improvement this morning. Nothing dramatic, but maybe a sign of hope? I checked the filter this morning and noticed a small amount of white material deposited in areas on top of the sand bed, so maybe something is finally filtering out?
Just rechecked and FC had fallen to 21 while in full sun, added another 1/2 gal or so of bleach per pool math app. Also added a small amount of DE to the filter (enough to raise PSI by ~1), hoping to increase filtration.
 
I've been continuing to maintain FC ~24 and CC = 0. There are definitely noticeable improvements to water clarity today. I can finally see the floor drains (in full light, barely, but they are there!).
FC was at 24 last night and 22 this morning, with the SWG on superboost (72 hrs at 100%, as I understand). The FC loss of 2 is slightly troubling, while the pool was still shaded, the sun was up for a couple hours already.
 

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