Circupool Total balance

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I

Isotonic1

Bronze Supporter
Mar 6, 2020
18
Wellington, Fl
Hi All. First post so be easy on me ;)
So have a 6 month old pool that I cannot seem to get control of regarding pH. I'm militant about the LSI/CSI and have lowered the TA to 60 to no avail. Still needs MA every two days. I actually love taking care of the pool so don't mind the process at all. Coffee/pool.
<Back to edit> It should be said that I have a SWCG, taller waterfall, and sundeck in a pool that's 14x30x5 respectively. I believe this elevated pH will be a continued issue for me. Please tell me if I'm wrong.
Heres the issue.......we are seasonal Florida residents and are leaving soon for the North. Would have been gone already if not for Covid. I cannot find a pool guy that begins to understand LSI/CSI. Most thought it was unimportant to test the CH so omitted it from their try outs. Even if I could find a service, they'd have to be out every two days to keep the pool truly balanced. Very afraid of what pool I'll come back to.

Enter.....Circupool Total balance. I read a recent thread in here regarding it and the two objections to the product were cost vs benefit and the tank refills. For me it seems that the cost would be worth it if it works. Anything at this point to build insurance policy for the finish of the new pool. Additionally the install seems simple DIY for my short time left here in Fl.

Any thoughts on ANY of this would be greatly appreciated. Green light or Red light? lol
 
I,

I had not heard of this system until your post.. Before I looked at the site, my initial thought was total Bull Stuff..

But, based upon what I read, if I had a ph problem and had to leave like you, I think it would be worth a shot.. I suggest that you try it for six months and let up know how it works out.. If it was from some fly-by-night outfit, I might be more hesitant, but we have had some pretty good reviews of CircuPool products.

Here is a link... CircuPool TOTALBalance pH Control (Acid-Free)

Thanks,

Jim R.
 
The one caveat to CO2 control of pH is, it does not reduce TA. So if your rising pH is due to fill water TA, it does not work well.
 
Jimrahbe said:
I,

I had not heard of this system until your post.. Before I looked at the site, my initial thought was total Bull Stuff..

But, based upon what I read, if I had a ph problem and had to leave like you, I think it would be worth a shot.. I suggest that you try it for six months and let up know how it works out.. If it was from some fly-by-night outfit, I might be more hesitant, but we have had some pretty good reviews of CircuPool products.

Here is a link... CircuPool TOTALBalance pH Control (Acid-Free)

Thanks,

Jim R.
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Thank you so much for response. I'm definitely leaning that direction waiting to be nudged. 6 month trial is a pretty good sign that they are confident.
 
Looks like a fairly simple CO2 injection system. Unlike muriatic acid injection, it’s harder to have an “accident” with CO2 and get to low in pH. I’d say it’s worth a try. I also like that they detect flow from the pump using differential pressure, that’s smart.
 
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Interesting. I saw that too and was going to ask about it here "someday". Out TA at fill seems to vary from 130-180 here (150 being typical except in the summer when it's on the high end), though so I already ruled it out for me. But it's been tempting to roll out the beer CO2 tank and try it once... then I realized that it would be wasting the beer CO2! I'm going to follow this because it's interesting in the first place. Think Carbonic Acid! :)
 
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Rattus Suffocatus said:
Interesting. I saw that too and was going to ask about it here "someday". Out TA at fill seems to vary from 130-180 here (150 being typical except in the summer when it's on the high end), though so I already ruled it out for me. But it's been tempting to roll out the beer CO2 tank and try it once... then I realized that it would be wasting the beer CO2! I'm going to follow this because it's interesting in the first place. Think Carbonic Acid! :)
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Thank you. Looks to me like I'll only regret not having it sooner.
 
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CO2 gas injection for pH control has been around forever. Commercial pools use it all the time because it’s relatively safe. It works well if you have soft fill water with low carbonate alkalinity and low CH. However if you live in an arid climate with hard water, CO2 injection will eventually result in rising TA over time (from the fill water) and the potential to get scaling will increase. In those climates, you will still need to dose with a strong mineral acid to decrease TA.

So here in AZ, not a good choice. In FL with soft water, perfectly reasonable.
 
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By the way, in my experience from two different places on two different sides of the country, find a fire extinguisher company for your refills. The industrial gas places think you are too small, and the welding places don't really like anyone else but the welders. Fire extinguisher companies do both residential and commercial, are only a buck or two more than the other places and will actually service and hydrotest your tanks rather than exchanging them with junk.

The CO2 gas itself is almost free, the tank refills are around $25-30 no matter what the size. So buy a big tank. Look into also using it to carbonate water for drinks...
 
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JoyfulNoise said:
CO2 gas injection for pH control has been around forever. Commercial pools use it all the time because it’s relatively safe. It works well if you have soft fill water with low carbonate alkalinity and low CH. However if you live in an arid climate with hard water, CO2 injection will eventually result in rising TA over time (from the fill water) and the potential to get scaling will increase. In those climates, you will still need to dose with a strong mineral acid to decrease TA.

So here in AZ, not a good choice. In FL with soft water, perfectly reasonable.
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So I have to ask the local chem God: I finally had CYA drop a bit (from 40 to 30) and I have to bring up CYA to 60-70 for the SWCG final hook-up this weekend, anyway. So I am adding a couple of pounds now I did notice in pool math that, as expected the Cyuranic acid would lower PH. I didn't see it effecting TA though in the calculations. Is it only certain acids that effect TA, like strong ones? I am home today, so I am going on and off the clock to adjust the water for the weekend, and I am trying to chase down TA a little.

I am going to have to chase pH with the CYA increase as well, apparently, but I can do the second dose later when pH comes back up... what I did should get me up to 50 CYA and down to about 7.2 pH... according to Pool Math.

Reading this thread made me think that CYA doesn't also decrease TA. Is that correct? Is it only certain types of acids that can do this? Or is CO2 an exception because it's naturally occurring in water anyway?
 
Rattus Suffocatus said:
So I have to ask the local chem God: I finally had CYA drop a bit (from 40 to 30) and I have to bring up CYA to 60-70 for the SWCG final hook-up this weekend, anyway. So I am adding a couple of pounds now I did notice in pool math that, as expected the Cyuranic acid would lower PH. I didn't see it effecting TA though in the calculations. Is it only certain acids that effect TA, like strong ones? I am home today, so I am going on and off the clock to adjust the water for the weekend, and I am trying to chase down TA a little.

I am going to have to chase pH with the CYA increase as well, apparently, but I can do the second dose later when pH comes back up... what I did should get me up to 50 CYA and down to about 7.2 pH... according to Pool Math.

Reading this thread made me think that CYA doesn't also decrease TA. Is that correct? Is it only certain types of acids that can do this? Or is CO2 an exception because it's naturally occurring in water anyway?
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Given the slow dissolution rate of CYA, I doubt you will see much of a pH change. The pH change that PoolMath calculates is based on the assumption that all of the CYA would be immediately dissolved...it's really not like that. So while you might see the pH drop a bit, it's going to be balanced by the addition of fill water over the same time period and any pH rise from aeration.

All acids that add a proton (H+) to the water will reduce the TA. Cyanuric acid is a weak acid so it's effect on TA is much smaller. TA is simply the sum of all alkaline species in the pool water minus the sum of all proton donating species to the pool water. Cyanuric acid adds protons to the water therefore the TA goes down. However, will you be able to measure that? Depends...

pH change, for those that don't have a chemistry background, is actually a very complicated calculation to make in all but the simplest aqueous solutions. Water typically contains lots of dissolved chemical species that act and react to the addition of acids and bases and so one has to account for every chemical species in the water that might buffer the additions or removal of protons (H+) from the water. Also, the ionic strength of the solution changes the activity of the hydrogen ion and therefore can affect pH. As an engineer you will understand this as a non-linear system many equations in many unknowns. To truly calculate pH change, there are complex mathematical algorithms to solve these systems of equations. PoolMath does some very basic math with some very BIG assumptions to simplify the calculations greatly so the pH changes reported are, at best, suggestive. If you are adding any chemical that is likely to change the pH by more than 0.1-0.2 units in either direction, it's best to add those chemicals in smaller batches and monitor the pH as you do so.
 
JoyfulNoise said:
Given the slow dissolution rate of CYA, I doubt you will see much of a pH change....

pH change, for those that don't have a chemistry background, is actually a very complicated calculation to make in all but the simplest aqueous solutions. Water typically contains lots of dissolved chemical species that act and react to the addition of acids and bases and so one has to account for every chemical species in the water that might buffer the additions or removal of protons (H+) from the water. Also, the ionic strength of the solution changes the activity of the hydrogen ion and therefore can affect pH. As an engineer you will understand this as a non-linear system many equations in many unknowns. To truly calculate pH change, there are complex mathematical algorithms to solve these systems of equations.
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Yup, That is instinctively what I thought. I had a hard time believing it would make that much difference in pH and I am starting to learn with this salt conversion that the fact that I decided to do it over a couple of weeks was a good idea. Even for mixing of the salt into the pool. As as far as a large amounts of unknowns and linear equations it boils down to the engineer's mantra of: Happiness is believing everything is linear. (The Engineering Manager's mantra is: Happiness is believing that everything is reusable.)

But you confirmed what I was already thinking of this and probably also confirmed my general water chemistry idea of less being more. I learned a lot of that with brewing chemistry what I was doing a lot of that.

I've been adding roughly half what I need for everything, and giving the pool a couple of days in between. I don't think I will ever get the TA to where I want it but maybe the production of OH- from the cell will help me with that.

I don't want to hijack this thread any further but I am glad I asked. Your reply was really as good as I thought it would be.
 
Back to the OP's thread, how long do you run the waterfall? With low TA fill water and not much fill water being added, the pH should not be rising so fast as to be out of balance every two days.

What parameters are you following?
 
ping said:
Back to the OP's thread, how long do you run the waterfall? With low TA fill water and not much fill water being added, the pH should not be rising so fast as to be out of balance every two days.

What parameters are you following?
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Hi. Average temp 87 degrees, FC 2(SWG), pH 7.5-8.0+, TA 70, CH 470, CYA 20, TDS 3700(3300 Salt), Phosphates < 200, Borates 30
Pool about 6 months old, plaster, 10,000 gallons with about a third of surface being a sundeck, waterfall from hot tub is about two foot drop that is not independent of the pump system.
Using Orenda enzymes, clarifier, phosphate remover, Metal/scale control, and app. Pool is balanced to 0 every day.
 
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You say you have a 'hot tub'. I assume that is an integrated spa that uses the pool water and equipment, correct? Do you have an automation system that you use to change from 'pool mode' to 'spa mode'?

A signature really helps us help you. See Create Your Signature - Further Reading
 
mknauss said:
You say you have a 'hot tub'. I assume that is an integrated spa that uses the pool water and equipment, correct? Do you have an automation system that you use to change from 'pool mode' to 'spa mode'?

A signature really helps us help you. See Create Your Signature - Further Reading
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Yes, Sir. Spa is integrated and we have an iAqua link where modes are changed via that phone app.
Testing with Taylor 2006, Lamotte Color Q7 when pH is surpasses the red of the Taylor.
 

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