Circupool RJ-45 Production Test

[JamesW]

For a 13 blade cell, below is the maximum theoretical chlorine production (Assuming that I am doing the calculations correctly).

The Hayward T-15 is a 13 blade cell and it has amperage in the 6 to 7 range for typical operation.

That puts the theoretical production at 2.5 to 2.91 lbs per day but Hayward says that the cell is rated for 1.47 lbs per day.

So, the question is, why does Hayward say 1.47 lbs per day?

Is the process 100% efficient?

Probably not.

1.47 lbs per day is about 1/2 of the possible output at 7 amps.

Does that suggest that the process is only 50% efficient?

Maybe Hayward has made an error in their calculations or testing or maybe a typo?

Maybe Hayward is being extra conservative to avoid liability?

Amps..........lbs per day

5.0..............2.08

5.2..............2.17

5.4..............2.25

5.6..............2.33

5.8..............2.42

6.0..............2.50

6.2..............2.58

6.4..............2.67

6.6..............2.75

6.8..............2.83

7.0..............2.91

7.2..............3.00

7.4..............3.08

7.6..............3.17

7.8..............3.25

 

[BK MAC]

Well, I found some consistency over the past few days. It's just consistently underwhelming.
My Taylor testing show my salt levels at 3200. I added 40 lbs yesterday and retested this AM at 3600.(I'm calling it 3500)
During these FC gain tests my SWG ran from 9 PM to 4 AM at 100% (7 Hours)
Salinity Now readouts ranged from 3220-3500. The extra salt did appear to effect the figure ever so slightly last night, but not FC production.
While running, my voltage has remained from 22.5-23 Amps have run from 5.55-5.72 while generating. (They were in the higher range last night)
My water temps have run from 86-87 in the evening and usually drop to 84 by the AM.
For two nights I ran at 50% to see if cycling had any effect. It did not in this case. It produced exactly 1/2 of my 100% production.
I have generated 1.6 ppm of FC when running at 100% , .8 ppm while at 50%.
Based on these results it seems my brand spanking new Circupool RJ45+ is generating .8 lbs per day.
Based on what I'm hearing, I'm in range and producing FC so I have no claim. While feeling duped, I can resign myself to living with it as long as the results stay consistent. I run my VSP 24/7 on lower RPM and have over 100% of my electric bill offset with my solar array. As such, I don't have the (legitimate) beef some with single speed pumps and high electric bills may have. My biggest concern is this......... If I'm only able to generate 40% of the daily FC production spec, how am I to trust their figures regarding lifetime FC production?
Did you send your cell back for testing @trivetman ?

 

[trivetman]

Did you send your cell back for testing @trivetman ?

Not yet. My dummy pipe arrived yesterday and I am questioning whether it's worth it. Like you, my cell is generating FC but only maybe 50% of what was promised. If DSP's 'testing' only verifies that FC is being made but doesn't quantify the amount, there is no reason to send it in and I might just call and complain loudly.

More details here...

SWG ratings

The words ‘call attorney about a class action lawsuit’ may or may not come out of my mouth. They specify arbitration. I don't know if that has any legal weight or not. "Any dispute between the original purchaser and CircuPool Products will be settled by binding arbitration, conducted in...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[ajw22]

maybe 50% of what was promised.

Did they promise or is it marketing puffery?

Puffery – A Marketer’s Right To Lie - Truth in Advertising

Ads can legally lie to you as long as the lie is so obvious an exaggeration that you know not to take it seriously.

truthinadvertising.org

 

[trivetman]

OK. Substitute ‘advertised’ for ‘promised’.

The degree to which anybody needs to be accountable for advertised ‘promises’ is up to the courts and lawyers. I am sure my opinion is a higher standard than is legally enforceable, but accountability can happen in the system.

Class-action settlement over Honda Civic Hybrid mileage claims approved

A class-action lawsuit between American Honda Motor Co. and plaintiffs who claimed the Japanese automaker overstated fuel-economy figures on Honda Civic Hyb

www.autoblog.com

 

[JamesW]

Absolutely not puffery.

Production numbers are factual assertions capable of verification.

If you make a claim that can be measured or objectively verified, the claim has to be based on facts.

Puffery is partly opinion.

For example, a real estate agent can say that a house is charming in the advertising copy, but that can't be proven because it's mostly subjective opinion unless it's obviously horrible.

However, if they say that the house is 4,500 square feet and it is only 3,800 square feet, that's fraud because the number is objective and measurable.

 

[JamesW]

Your box of cereal might say "Tastes Great" and you might not like the taste and there's not much you can do.

However, if the box says 18 oz. that has to be correct.

If someone found out that there was only 15 oz most of the time, that's actionable because the company knows or should know the actual weight of the product being delivered.

 

[poolurker5]

If you base the output from the sticker on the cell (which just says 40k pool) I did get what I ordered. A 10k cell on a 10k pool will maintain it at 24-hours at 100% output. My 40k cell on my 10k pool is able to maintain my pool with 6-hours at 100%. Though according to the detailed output on the website it should have been able to do it in under 4 hours. The manual for the unit does not contain any output numbers. Just hope I get the generation life out of it.

 

[trivetman]

If you base the output from the sticker on the cell (which just says 40k pool) I did get what I ordered. A 10k cell on a 10k pool will maintain it at 24-hours at 100% output. My 40k cell on my 10k pool is able to maintain my pool with 6-hours at 100%. Though according to the detailed output on the website it should have been able to do it in under 4 hours. The manual for the unit does not contain any output numbers. Just hope I get the generation life out of it.

I view production specs of #/cl over some time period as much more specific than rating for X gallons pool size, which has much more variability in terms of location and weather not to mention potential mis-management of water chemistry.

 

[JamesW]

They are clearly using the daily output and lifetime claims to try to gain an advantage over the big manufacturers like Pentair, Jandy, Autopilot and Hayward.

They are claiming that their cells and products outperform and outlast the other products.

In my opinion, these claims are probably not based on real testing in side by side comparisons by an independent testing service.

Product output claims are more difficult to prove than a static metric like weight.

A product like cereal can be weighed and the weight either is or is not correct.

There’s no opinion, ambiguity or reason for variance.

For a product like a heat pump, the output changes based on the weather conditions like air temperature and humidity and water temperature, but those factors are included in the ratings at specific conditions.

For example, a Pentair Ultratemp 140C at 80/80/80 should produce 140,000 btu/hr or very close to that number.

If you were able to prove that the units only produced 100,000 btu/hr at 80/80/80, then you would have a legitimate complaint especially if you bought the unit relying on the published numbers.

The Circupool SWGs list a salinity up to 4,500 ppm, which is not a realistic number.

If the pool is 95 degrees and 4,500 ppm, then it might be able to produce the amount claimed as long as the amperage is not limited.

It looks like the amperage is limited to below 8.0 amps, which means that the production is also limited.

Assuming the Circupool SWG is basically a clone of the Hayward Aquarite, it is not reasonable, in my opinion, to think that the Circupool will outperform and outlast the Aquarite by a factor of 1.5 times or more.

In any case, any claims have to be based on some sort of reasonable basis.

You can’t just pull numbers out of thin air.

If the production numbers are at specific conditions like water temperature and/or salinity, then those numbers should be provided.

If the numbers are “Maximum Theoretical Output” values, then that should be clearly specified.

Any numbers provided without qualifications should be reasonable expectations for average users.

If the numbers are not what an average customer can expect under average conditions, then that needs to be clearly specified.

Someone with a Circupool unit that is questioning the performance of a unit they have purchased has the right to request some sort of explanation of where the numbers came from.

If CircuPool has any type of reasonable basis for their claimed output, then they should have no problem providing it.

Someone just needs to ask them directly, in writing, to provide a written statement of the basis for the output claims and any supporting documentation.

Beyond this, the single most important attribute of any system is the amount of power it has, or its chlorine output, always measured in terms of pounds per day (lbs/day) of sanitizer produced. More is always better.

Compare and Review Saltwater Chlorine Generator Prices and Features | DSP

www.discountsaltpool.com

 

[JonoVegas]

WOW! This thread makes my head hurt! Now normally I like to get into the weeds, record details, spreadsheets, testing, etc. But man, this thread goes to another dimension!!!

Here is my simplistic input:
RJ45+ owner, about 15k gallons, run all the TFP chemical testing....net-net I Love my RJ45+ after about 3 seasons.

Salt testing does give variable results (Taylor vs Taylor vs RJ45+). Bottom line if you are in range and the RJ45+ is happy, don't sweat the details unless that makes you happy.

Does the RJ45+ generate a consistent amount of chlorine? Nope, too many other variables. I can run at 35% to 40% over 10 hr period, so I am in my feel good range given Taylor FC test results.

Pool is crystal clear.

Had some issues early on with chems and running the RJ45+ and vendor DSP was very helpful within reason.

 

[JamesW]

Here is my simplistic input:
RJ45+ owner, about 15k gallons, run all the TFP chemical testing....net-net I Love my RJ45+ after about 3 seasons.

I don’t think that anyone is claiming that the Circupool units are not good products.

The main concern is if the published production numbers are realistic or not.

People rely on the published daily production and lifetime production numbers to make a purchase decision based on if the unit will meet their needs and to compare value vs. other brands.

If the numbers are not realistic, then that constitutes unfair practices because the unit might not meet the needs or it might not be the value promised.

It’s not fair to other manufacturers if they lose sales because they publish realistic values and a different manufacturer publishes unrealistic values which appear to make the CircuPool product a substantially better deal even though it is actually going to produce the same amount of chlorine on a daily basis and on a lifetime basis.

 

[JamesW]

In my opinion, the published claims by AutoPilot, Hayward, Pentair and Jandy/Zodiac/Fluidra are going to be more credible than the numbers published by Circupool units made in China.

Common sense indicates that it is not reasonable to think that the CircuPool units will produce 1.5 times as much or last 1.5 times as long as one of the units by AutoPilot, Hayward, Pentair or Jandy/Zodiac/Fluidra unless they have some secret technology that no one else has.

Seeing as the units seem to be simply reverse engineered clones of the Hayward units, that does not seem likely.

To be fair to all manufacturers, all units need to be tested by a reputable independent organization at the same time under the same conditions.

 

[JamesW]

Discount Salt Pools is simply a distributor. As far as I can tell the Circupool business model is to import bulk quantities of SWG systems with their branding from various Chinese manufactures. That is why they have all the different models.

Ningbo C.F Electronic Tech Co., Ltd might be the manufacturer.

They make these pumps for Circupool.

I think that they probably also make the salt systems.

Ningbo C.f Electronic Tech Co., Ltd.

Ningbo C.f Electronic Tech Co., Ltd., Experts in Manufacturing and Exporting and 0 more Products.

techflife.en.alibaba.com

 

[trivetman]

Wait….this thread is back!!!!

 

[markayash]

Wait….this thread is back!!!!

I don’t think you can find many things that don’t have some parts from China. I don’t blame companies, when a part cost $5 in the US and 25 cents from China and you need 50,000 of them