Building a new home, so building a new pool and spa too!

[Sharkygirl]

Hi. I used to live in Key West, FL. We sold our home and have moved to Sarasota, FL. We are in the process of building a new home. At my Key West house we had all Jandy equipment. If you read through some of my past posts, you will notice it was on fiasco after another. So I am considering a Pentair system this time. My last home had a separate pool and hot tub. I had double the equipment because they each were their own system. This time around the hot tub is going to be part of the pool. I have never had a system like this. Can someone explain to me the ideal way the pump/filter/heater system(s) should be set up? Do I need two pumps? Do I need two filters? etc. I am considering a cartridge filter this time because I live in the city and I may have issues with backwashing into the city sewer. The spa will be 6'x8' and the pool will be rectangular 14'x 29'. I will have 4' at the shallow end and 6' at the deep end. Since this house and pool is only on paper so far, I want to make sure I do it right.

 

[Dirk]

Was your previous spa a stand-alone, like fiberglass, with all the bells and whistles? All sorts of jets and massagers? Multiple stations each with a different incline and unique comfort niceties? Head rests? Individual controls, etc?

If so, your in-pool spa will be nothing like that. It'll be a concrete box, with a concrete bench, with a half-dozen or so jets around mid-back. I think you can get bubbles coming out of the jets with a twist of a knob if you pay extra. That's it.

Full disclosure: I've never owned either kind of spa, I'm only sharing because I've read a lot of threads here about how folks building a pool kinda fall into the notion that their spa will be attached, and raised, and the waterfall into the pool will be really cool, and folks will be able to jump from the hot spa to the cool pool and everything will be great. And to some degree that is all true. But then reality sets in, they now have an extra chunk of pool to keep clean (which their automatic cleaning system can't clean) and the water fall messes with their pool chemistry (it'll likely make your pH rise constantly) and so they don't use it much, so they're left with a concrete box of a spa that is as uncomfortable as it sounds.

Oh, and if I'm not mistaken, it's not really possible, or rather not efficient, to use that type of spa if your weather and pool turn cold. Which is perhaps when a hot spa would be most welcome. Maybe that won't be an issue where you'll live.

And then there is the cost. For the added cost of an in-pool spa, you'll be looking at a figure that could buy you the most deluxe stand alone imaginable, with quite a chunk leftover. And heating an in-pool is no where near as efficient as heating a stand-alone. Not only is insulation a factor, but an in-pool has to dump it's water into the main pool every day, for sanitizing, so keeping it hot 24/7 is not as easy or cheap as in a stand-alone.

Apologies if you've already thought about all this and are sure of what you want, and for interjecting without answering your questions. I'm merely projecting, because after what I've learned here, if I was going to go through the trouble and expense of adding a spa to my pool build, I'd want it to be the most luxurious spa experience ever, one I could use year-round, with all the bells and whistles that just can't be recreated in-pool. I'd design the pool such that a stand-alone could be positioned very near the pool, perhaps adjacent, like on the other side of the pool's wall, kinda half-buried to get that same look and proximity, and if I really just had to have the waterfall, I'd add a shear decent to the common wall to mimic that effect. I'd have all the benefits of both an in-pool spa and a stand-alone, without any of the downsides.

Maybe something to think about.

 

[Toxophilite]

I have attached pool/spa and with Pentair automation. Pool and spa share pump, chlorinator, and filter. In pool mode, all water is pumped from and back to pool. In spa mode, all water is pumped from and back to spa. In these settings, they do not share water with each other. In spillway mode, all water is from pool and returned to spa, equalizing back to pool via spa spillway. So, there's 3 modes to use.

Now, that leaves the issue of chlorinating the spa daily while in pool mode. You can program for spillway to run several times a day, or, you can also have your PB install a bypass valve on the pool return that will allow you to regulate some water going to spa anytime the pool mode is running. The latter method means to spillway is running some overflow most of the time and will contribute to some pH rise. If you have the bypass to spa, that still does not preclude you from closing it and programming the spillway a couple of times a day instead. Main thing is that the spa get circulation and chlorination refresh often enough during the day.

 

[Sharkygirl]

Thank you for your reply. Everyone has different ideas for the spa experience. We had a separate "concrete box" before and we loved it. It was cement, like the pool. Not interested in keeping it hot all the time. With an efficient heater, we could heat it up in anticipation of using it quite quickly. We would use the jets occasionally. Yes, we sound boring I know, but we basically used it as a quiet outdoor soaking tub to relax and unwind. It had a light in it, we had outdoor speakers for music and it served it's purpose for our needs. With this current property, space is an issue, which is one of the reasons for connecting it to the pool. I was hoping to gain some understanding on how this system works for filtering and heating.

 

[Sharkygirl]

I have attached pool/spa and with Pentair automation. Pool and spa share pump, chlorinator, and filter. In pool mode, all water is pumped from and back to pool. In spa mode, all water is pumped from and back to spa. In these settings, they do not share water with each other. In spillway mode, all water is from pool and returned to spa, equalizing back to pool via spa spillway. So, there's 3 modes to use.

Now, that leaves the issue of chlorinating the spa daily while in pool mode. You can program for spillway to run several times a day, or, you can also have your PB install a bypass valve on the pool return that will allow you to regulate some water going to spa anytime the pool mode is running. The latter method means to spillway is running some overflow most of the time and will contribute to some pH rise. If you have the bypass to spa, that still does not preclude you from closing it and programming the spillway a couple of times a day instead. Main thing is that the spa get circulation and chlorination refresh often enough during the day.

WOW, that is extremely helpful! Thank you. So I noticed your pool is relatively the same size as ours will be based on your profile. We will have an infinity edge on one side of the pool. I had that before and am very familiar with the ph rise. So I added Borates to my pool and that kept it more stable. Do you have a separate pump for an infinity edge? I noticed you have 2 pumps listed. Tell me, do you like your system? Would you do anything different if you had to do it over again?

 

[Sharkygirl]

WOW, that is extremely helpful! Thank you. So I noticed your pool is relatively the same size as ours will be based on your profile. We will have an infinity edge on one side of the pool. I had that before and am very familiar with the ph rise. So I added Borates to my pool and that kept it more stable. Do you have a separate pump for an infinity edge? I noticed you have 2 pumps listed. Tell me, do you like your system? Would you do anything different if you had to do it over again?

One more question. What if you have people swimming in the pool and people in the spa. If you want to heat your spa during this time, does that hot water keep going into the pool? Wouldn't that make it inefficient to heat? Sorry for dumb questions, but the system sounds like it might get a little complicated.

 

[Toxophilite]

I have one pump that is for pool and spa, it is on filter and chlorinator. The second pump is independent for just one waterfall and 2 bubblers, independent plumbing system with no filter or chlorinator.

Yes, like the set up. I do like that they installed that bypass to spa option. Yes, it contributes to a little pH rise, but we like some water over the spillway when out with the pool. I have the valve just cracked so on my slowest pool mode run there's a slow fall over the split face of spa spillway.

As for dual use, folks in hot spa while folks in cool pool, you can run in spa mode and heat the spa. No water is shared. You can't run pool mode circulation then, but all my features for pool are on that separate pump that is independent of each.

Edit to add: I do see an inherent flaw in my design, which btw, I didn't have any hand in and the PB decided for me. In the off chance I have the situation where folks want to use spa and some folks are swimming, I'm not filtering the pool or chlorinating the pool while in the arrangement. As a matter of fact, now looking at the system, running in spa mode doesn't chlorinate the way spa return is set up, chlorinator is only on pool return, which I guess keeps the spa from over-chlorinating in spa mode, or at least I assume their intent for doing that way.

 

[Dirk]

With this current property, space is an issue, which is one of the reasons for connecting it to the pool. I was hoping to gain some understanding on how this system works for filtering and heating.

Sounds like you have a good handle on what you want. I'll leave your pool/spa plumbing questions for those that actually have spas!

Now regarding lights, those I have! Again, projecting the ol' "This is how I'd want it done!" logic:

I'd want my spa light and pool lights to be on separate circuits, to allow one or the other or both to be on, so I can "set the mood" however I want. And I'd want my pool lights pointed away from the spa, and away from where I would most often sit outside. The idea being to be able to enjoy the beautifully lit pool, from either my lounging area, or from within the spa, such that I couldn't see the actual light fixture(s), only the lit water. My pool light points right at our primary sitting area, and that has always bugged me.

 

[JJ_Tex]

One more question. What if you have people swimming in the pool and people in the spa. If you want to heat your spa during this time, does that hot water keep going into the pool? Wouldn't that make it inefficient to heat? Sorry for dumb questions, but the system sounds like it might get a little complicated.

No. In spa mode, the water is sucked into the spa drain and then back out the spa returns so the water level stays the same and does not overflow into the pool.

Conversely in pool mode, water is sucked into the pool drains/skimmers and back out the pool returns. You will probably have a single jet in the spa as well that is tied to your pool returns so that you will get freshly chlorinated water into the spa since it will be in pool mode 99% of the time.

 

[Sharkygirl]

No. In spa mode, the water is sucked into the spa drain and then back out the spa returns so the water level stays the same and does not overflow into the pool.

Conversely in pool mode, water is sucked into the pool drains/skimmers and back out the pool returns. You will probably have a single jet in the spa as well that is tied to your pool returns so that you will get freshly chlorinated water into the spa since it will be in pool mode 99% of the time.

Hmm. Is what you are explaining different from what toxophilite said, where you could have 3 modes?

 

[Toxophilite]

Sharkygirl, I would call it 3.5 modes:

Pool Mode = all water from pool, and all water back to pool (pool suction valve open, pool return valve open)
a. Pool Mode w/ bypass opened = same as above Pool Mode, but bypass valve directs some pool return water to spa, which overflows spa back to pool (bypass valve cracked open)

Spa Mode = all water from spa, and all water back to spa (spa suction valve open, spa return valve open)

Spillway Mode = all water from pool, all water back to spa (pool suction open, spa return open)

 

[JJ_Tex]

Either way you slice it, I see it as 2 basic modes: pool and spa.

Spa mode is simple, you only use it when you are using the spa. The pool water remains still until you turn it back to pool mode.

Pool mode can have some variations when it comes to the spa:
Pool only - No water is returned to the spa
Spillover - Some pool water is returned to the spa to cause it to spill over into the pool. This mode should be run on a regular basis to give the spa some fresh water. This can be run either 100% of the time when in pool mode or only scheduled to run at certain times of the day if you do not want your spa spillover going all of the time.

 

[Blancmik]

I'd want my spa light and pool lights to be on separate circuits, to allow one or the other or both to be on, so I can "set the mood" however I want. And I'd want my pool lights pointed away from the spa, and away from where I would most often sit outside. The idea being to be able to enjoy the beautifully lit pool, from either my lounging area, or from within the spa, such that I couldn't see the actual light fixture(s), only the lit water. My pool light points right at our primary sitting area, and that has always bugged me.

Thanks for this... I'm in the middle of building a pool/spa combo and need to ask my builder about this. I agree that it would be preferable to have the pool and spa lights on separate circuits. Thanks!

 

[Dirk]

Thanks for this... I'm in the middle of building a pool/spa combo and need to ask my builder about this. I agree that it would be preferable to have the pool and spa lights on separate circuits. Thanks!

If you later decide you don't need the lights separated, it's a simple matter to splice the wires together back at the equipment pad. But the opposite would not likely be true. It's just a few extra feet of wire to build in this option. After the pool is finished, and the deck is poured, it can be impossible to add it.

 

[Sharkygirl]

Thank you everyone. This is such great information.

Sharkygirl, I would call it 3.5 modes:

Pool Mode = all water from pool, and all water back to pool (pool suction valve open, pool return valve open)
a. Pool Mode w/ bypass opened = same as above Pool Mode, but bypass valve directs some pool return water to spa, which overflows spa back to pool (bypass valve cracked open)

Spa Mode = all water from spa, and all water back to spa (spa suction valve open, spa return valve open)

Spillway Mode = all water from pool, all water back to spa (pool suction open, spa return open)

I love how you spelled out the valves for me. This is definately the information that helps me understand the way the system works.

 

[Toxophilite]

It's great that you are building pool/spa with house. We started to do that but then backed off and did the pool a few years later, just this year. It's like building a house 2x in stress and mess, and it is better probably to get it all over in one fell swoop.

It would be good to clarify with your PB how they plan to accomplish this make up water with the spa. Some I've seen in here the PB sidesteps the hassle of putting in a dedicated bypass and return to the spa by just setting the actuator valve stop to only partially close spa return when in pool mode. This is not as good, as it then becomes a setting that you cannot adjust on the fly and have control of flow without doing a mechanical change to the actuator valve. It's a lot better to have infinite control of your spa overflow rate by just turning a valve from closed, slow, mid, to full open at will. The spa overflow/spillway is as much a functional amenity as it is in being a necessary volume equalizer.

Be sure to post some build pics of both, house and pool, once you get started.

 

[ajw22]

Here is the setup of my 7”x7” concrete box spa.

My spa uses both the main filter pump to heat and filter the spa as well as having a dedicated spa jet pump to give good massaging pressure to the spa jets. And there is an air blower.

The filter/pump, shown in blue, that is shared with the pool is used to filter and heat the spa water through two returns.

The spa jet pump, shown in red, goes direct to the 8 spa jets with no restrictions from the filter or heater.

I can run my spa in four modes:

• Relaxing soak with just the filter pump providing heated water
• SPA with jets running
• SPA with air blower
• SPA with jets and air blower

 

[ajw22]

Thanks for this... I'm in the middle of building a pool/spa combo and need to ask my builder about this. I agree that it would be preferable to have the pool and spa lights on separate circuits. Thanks!

If you are using LED lights that require a transformer then you need a separate transformer for each light group that will be individually controlled. That makes it more difficult changing the light controls after the pool is wired as the lights are wired to a specific transformer and then the transformer is wired to your automation panel.

It was easier with 120 volt lights where each light could be individually wired to the panel and you could adjust the light wiring

When I changed my automation panel from Aqualink to IntelliCenter I discovered my two pool lights and one spa light each were individually wired into the panel but all connected to one light relay so they all went on and off at the same time. I changed that to the pool lights on one relay and the spa light on another relay. And the IntelliCenter has an All Lights On button as well as separate Pool and Spa light buttons. So I lost nothing and gained separate light controls.

 

[mknauss]

As a matter of fact, now looking at the system, running in spa mode doesn't chlorinate the way spa return is set up, chlorinator is only on pool return, which I guess keeps the spa from over-chlorinating in spa mode, or at least I assume their intent for doing that way.

The Pentair automation will reduce the Intellichlor output when in SPA mode. It is much better to have the SWCG in a position before the valves that send the water to Pool or Spa. Thus the Spa can get some chlorine while in use, when it needs it.

 

[Toxophilite]

The Pentair automation will reduce the Intellichlor output when in SPA mode. It is much better to have the SWCG in a position before the valves that send the water to Pool or Spa. Thus the Spa can get some chlorine while in use, when it needs it.

Very useful to know! Thanks! I've still not pulled the trigger on the SWG, but that is a good feature I had not considered. Will it work as add on to my ET?