Beginner with high CYA looking for advice

[manybothans]

Hi everyone! My buddy in Michigan recommended this forum. I just took over pool maintenance from the company we'd been using, and I'm having some issues keeping the dang thing chlorinated. (The pool's also been a relationship sore spot and I'm gonna try not to TMI y'all, but I'd be trying different things if it were just me, so I'm gonna need to reference that a little. Okay, a medium amount... maybe a lot?)

Our CYA is over 100 ppm. I can't be more exact than that because the test I used, the kind where you check the level once the black dot stops being visible, doesn't label the beaker far down enough. It's off the charts high. I suspect this is because before I took over, nobody remotely cared about our CYA levels; the pool company was using chlorine tabs and I suspect dichlor shock.

When I first took over and started testing, there was consistently almost no free chlorine, even with several trichlor tabs in the floatie. The pool looked fine and we weren't having algae problems (yet), but I wanted to get the chlorine levels up before we got a nasty bacterial surprise, so I started doing some research, which led me to start troubleshooting it as a CYA issue.

I pulled the trichlor floatie and picked up some cal hypo and liquid chlorine. The cal hypo gets the chlorine levels up pretty consistently, the liquid chlorine has been harder to deal with in regard to figuring out what dosage is gonna move the needle. I've dumped in four gallons trying to hyperchlorinate and successfully gotten the levels above 10 ppm, I've also dumped in four gallons and been at .5 ppm eight hours later.

In any case, the chlorine level will only stay in the swimmable range for one day before dropping back down to barely chlorinated, then if I don't put in more chlorine that night, we get algae. I'm spending mad bank at the WalMart outdoor department like it's a strip club in Vegas.

As for trying to get the CYA down, we're in Phoenix valley summer temperatures at the moment, so we can't do a full drain & refill. We've got a (not super powerful) pool pump that we've used for a few hours at a time over two or three nights, and it did get the CYA down some, in that it went from being way off the charts to only substantially off the charts. Our auto-refiller is too loud to run at night, so if we use the pump, someone has to stay up until 2-4 AM to shut off the refill hose. (It's me, I'm someone.)

I need my partner's buy-in to run the pump, and he's more concerned about our plaster and our water bill than he is about our cyanuric acid. Honestly it's turned into a weird thing where he thinks I'm hyperfixated on the CYA to the exclusion of anything else that might be causing a chlorine problem, and I'm trying to explain that from what I've read, we haven't even done the pool equivalent of turning it off and back on again.

Well, today he said he wants to hire a new pool company, because it'd be cheaper than what I'm spending on chlorine anyway (can't argue) and he doesn't want to think about it anymore. I said okay, but could we look for a company that would actually work with us about the cyanuric acid levels instead of showing up, throwing the floatie back in, and busting out more dichlor shock? He said sure, as long as I was willing to call around and find a company that would do that. (Most of the reason the pool has been a contentious issue is he's stretched thin & we agreed I'd take care of it myself.)

I started researching pool companies today (figured I'd call Monday since many are closed on Saturday) & got more and more depressed every time I'd read the list of services & it just said "chlorine tabs." I really don't have any faith that if we hire a new company, we won't wind up back in a situation where we have a nice-looking pool with barely any chlorine. I'm also pretty sure I could stay on top of this by myself if the CYA levels were lower and I wasn't buying & adding chlorine every other day.

So tl;dr: here are my questions, troublefreepool forum:

Am I hyperfixating on CYA?
Is there something else that might be causing the high requirements for external chlorine? (It's definitely gotten hotter, and we get a ton of sun.)
Is there some noob thing I'm just doing fundamentally wrong here?
It is true that I'm supposed to have to add way less chlorine than this, right? (I'm at like 8 gallons a week.)
What might be causing the inconsistent results I'm getting with liquid chlorine dosage?
Is it actually okay to have a nice-looking pool with barely any chlorine and I should just calm down and accept the trichlor floatie back into my life?
If I'm not wrong about assuming I should troubleshoot this as a CYA issue, can anybody who actually knows about this stuff back me up with an authoritative statement?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Texas Splash]

Welcome to TFP! You're not imagining things. The CYA is extremely important. The tabs add powders are a crutch and will only make matters worse. Until the day comes where you choose to invest in a salt water generator, you'll need to add liquid chlorine each day. You can see how the chlorine needs to be balanced to the CYA in our FC/CYA Levels.

Also look at our[ BASICS][/BASICS] for lots of great info. Do your best with that CYA, it will help in the long run. Plan ahead with water when the monsoons hit soon. Take advantage of the free water.

 

[zea3]

Hi, welcome to TFP! I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but with very high CYA it is going to be difficult to keep the pool properly chlorinated. It sounds like you have done some water replacement. Ultimately that will be your solution. Almost nothing else removes CYA and it does not evaporate out either. You might check into seeing if there is a company in your area that will do a reverse osmosis treatment on your pool. It will remove CYA (and everything else) from your water and you will only lose a fraction of the pool water in the process. A quick google search showed a company called Clear Canyon Water Renewal that services your area. I have no idea what it costs or what their reputation is, but you could call them for more information.

We have a free poolmath app PoolMath that will help calculate the correct dosages of pool chemicals based on your current test results. That will give you an idea of how much water you would need to drain and replace. Try pulling a cup of pool water and mixing it with a cup of tap water in a bowl and then use that to run the CYA test. Take the result and double it to give a ballpark estimate of your current CYA level.

Another thing you need to watch out for is high calcium levels in the pool water. Most of our Arizona friends have very hard water right from the tap. You will need to monitor your calcium levels and keep the pH around 7.0-7.2 to prevent scale formation on pool surfaces. Scale will show up as rough, discolored patches. Just like CYA calcium does not evaporate out and excess calcium can only be removed by reverse osmosis or draining and refilling with lower calcium water. Keeping the pH around 7.0 can help prevent scale formation so its a little easier to work with than high CYA. Keep this in mind if you continue to use cal hypo. At this point cal hypo may be your most cost effective source of chlorine until you can replace the water.

Best of luck and feel free to ask any questions. We are here to help!

 

[manybothans]

Reverse osmosis sounds like potentially a really good idea & I'll look into it; I'm sure it's pricey but it'd be great to save the water & we could really use a reset on more than the CYA tbh. (We moved in two years ago and I have no idea when the pool was last drained.) And yup, our water is obnoxiously hard right out of the tap, so probably RO would do a much better job getting the calcium down than pumping would.

Thanks for the warm welcome and the help!

 

[magiteck]

To try to get a semi-accurate CYA reading, you can do a diluted test. There’s no CYA in tap water, so use half tap water and half pool water for the black dot test. Then, double the result, and you should have your approximate CYA level. If the diluted test is still over 100, then you know you’re over 200. You can further dilute, but each dilution does introduce more margin of error, so keep in mind it really is an approximation. That would at least tell you though if partial water exchanges could realistically get you there.

Have a read through the ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry under Pool Care Basics and the CYA relationship will hopefully start to make more sense. You can share that knowledge with your partner as well!

If you have the CYA test it sounds like you might have a decent test kit already, but can you share what test kit you have? That will help us help you.

 

[manybothans]

Thanks for the tip, I'll try that! Kit is just an HTH brand 6-way test kit and I don't know if it's decent or not; I've been seeing Taylor test kits namechecked around the forum & I'll probably wind up upgrading.

Also if anyone has any advice about saltwater generators, y'all got me reading about them & I'm already like "sign me up" lol

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

And yup, our water is obnoxiously hard right out of the tap

Look into connecting your pool's fill line to a water softener.

 

[proavia]

Welcome to TFP neighbor!

Fill out your signature with pool, pool equipment (including manufacturers and model numbers) and test kit info.
This assists us in providing help based on your specific pool without the need to ask you for this info each time.

https://www.troublefreepool.com/account/signature

Once we know a bit more about your pool and equipment, we can suggest a SWCG that will work with your setup.

We can help you get your pool as trouble free as possible.
I'd suggest getting a TF-100 (add the SpeedStir/SmartStir), TF-Pro (includes the SmartStir) or K-2006C (yeah, the 'C' is important - and you'd need to add the SpeedStir). Test Kits Compared
The TF-100 or TF-Pro are the better value for the residential pool owner.

Sounds like you have high CYA levels, given your report of over 100. A CYA of about 70 is good for a SWCG and about 40-50 for a manually chlorinated pool.
If the pool hasn't been drained in 3+ years, you also probably have high CH levels (do to our hard water here in the valley).
Doing an RO treatment will lower both - but is expensive. A drain/refill would be the most economical, but it's too hot right now to do that.
A no-drain water exchange may be your best bet right now.

Draining - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

We will be here to assist during your pool adventure.

 

[mgtfp]

I've dumped in four gallons trying to hyperchlorinate and successfully gotten the levels above 10 ppm, I've also dumped in four gallons and been at .5 ppm eight hours later.

In any case, the chlorine level will only stay in the swimmable range for one day before dropping back down to barely chlorinated,

Welcome to TFP, you have found the right place. We will help you to get your pool and that relationship sore spot cleared. We can't offer relationship advice beyond that, but the pool is a low hanging fruit on the way to happiness. But you will need a bit of patience, do some reading to understand the TFP method and trust the people around here guiding you through the process.

In the FC/CYA Levels article that Pat already pointed out, you will notice that the correct FC level depends on the CYA level. So what you probably considered "swimmable" until now, I'd describe as germs cocktail, and what you considered "hyperchlorinate" level barely got you into the swimmable range.

"Hyperchlorination" - we prefer the term SLAM - for CYA 100 is at FC 39. And anything between 8 and 39 we'd consider swimmable. And your CYA is likely even higher.

Do the diluted CYA test as mentioned above. This will tell you how much water you need to replace to get to a manageable CYA-level. Then you will likely have to follow the SLAM Process.

Thanks for the tip, I'll try that! Kit is just an HTH brand 6-way test kit and I don't know if it's decent or not; I've been seeing Taylor test kits namechecked around the forum & I'll probably wind up upgrading.

Order one of the recommended test kits (Test Kits Compared). The FAS/DPD test in these kits is essential to apply the TFP method, especially for a successful SLAM.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Your biggest hurdle right now isn’t the pool, following TFP can easily fix that.

Your biggest problem right now is your partner/significant-other. Without buy-in from him that this is going to be a process and take time, your lousy pool is going to cause a lousy relationship. What he needs to realize is that this garbage pool water chemistry didn’t happen overnight and it’s not going to be solved overnight either. It’s also not going to be cheap to undo years of abuse to the water. You paid for lousy pool service and you now have a lousy pool … but it’s fixable. It’s needs time, commitment, and a willingness to learn something new. Nickel & dime’in it is what got you into this mess … continuing to nickel & dime it isn’t going to get you out of it.

Sorry, but reality hits us all at some point like a 2x4 between the eyes and it sounds like your partner isn’t yet ready to accept the reality. Either you go into this 100% together and get it done, or you spin your wheels trying to take short cuts. There’s plenty of information on this forum as well as all the horror stories of what lousy pool care does to a pool. He needs to read it for himself because he won’t accept it from anyone else.

 

[Oly]

Have your partner watch these short videos to learn that your focus on CYA and Free Chlorine is exactly correct to keep your pool algae and bacteria free. The second vid reinforces there are no short cuts or magic potions so save your money, stay away from pool stores and weekly pool service. Invest in a proper test kit so you can test yourself at home and dial in your water chemistry with a sound plan, no guessing.

 

[manybothans]

Thanks everybody! Little bit of an update: I talked to my partner about the pool and he's more on board; I think it helped a lot to be able to say "here is what the people on the forum think." We're going to try reverse osmosis as soon as we can get somebody out, in the meantime we're going to keep draining & refilling a little at night and I'm gonna do my best to keep chlorine levels up.

I've ordered a better test kit -- the one I have only included enough reagent to test CYA twice? and suggested you test CYA twice a year?? like buddy I dunno what world you're living in but it's not the same one I'm living in lol

Also gonna work on filling out the information for my signature, I think the pool is around 20,000 gallons but it's a weird shape so I've only done the roughest of calculations (if only it were a conical basin I could dust off what I learned in my calculus classes, but no dice). And I haven't been paying any attention to model names on equipment so I'm going to have to check all that, we're just using what the previous owners had. (I feel like this forum is going to be the gateway drug for me upgrading a lot of stuff about the pool : P )

Thanks again! It's too soon to say for sure that y'all saved my relationship but the conversation definitely went better this time. I'll report back once there's an update.

Oh, and quick question (sorry if this is covered in a FAQ and I missed it), should I SLAM after reverse osmosis or no? Thanks!

 

[mknauss]

They can not do an RO if you have any algae. It will foul their membrane system.

 

[proavia]

An RO treatment will probably cost about 3x as much as a properly done no-drain water exchange (given Mesa water rates).

What better test kit did you order?

 

[Newdude]

Show the SO what we do for folks like you on the daily :

How Clear is TFP Clear?


Show him that at each CYA increase, the amount of chlorine needed to sanitize at the same level increases proportionately. Every level on this chart is equal.




Tell him to tally up the post counts of everyone helping you in this thread. They've helped folks such as yourself well over 140k times combined. That's a frickton of rodeos.

Then show him the member tally at the bottom of the page. Almost 360k members spanning 17 years. The collective wisdom here is as off the charts as your CYA.

That should help him drink the Pool-Aid.

 

[manybothans]

So after falling off the face of the earth for several days I'm back with an update:

We are going ahead with RO this coming week, I know it's significantly more expensive than a properly done water exchange but it was also much easier to sell my partner on "some guys show up in a truck" rather than "you and I fart around with some hoses while it's 100 degrees at night." He offered to schedule it and pay for it, so that was really nice & makes me feel better about the whole Pool-Relationship Situation.

Honestly "people on the forum say this" turned out to be a magic bullet in regards to him taking me seriously, which like, that's a deeper issue well beyond the scope of this pool forum & we'll have to take it to therapy lmao

(Also he told me later the RO people on the phone were like "Oh yeah, high CYA, that'll create a problem with your chlorine" & he was like "Yup yup, high CYA, absolutely, that is a thing that everyone knows" & I'm like "cool, glad you're on board >_<")

They can not do an RO if you have any algae. It will foul their membrane system.

I didn't have time to respond when this was first posted but it was good to know & I passed it along to the SO before he started calling companies. Our algae situation isn't too out of control, I just scrubbed a bunch off of the filter intake area but otherwise we're looking pretty good, I think? (Including a picture so y'all can judge.)

The company's going to come out on Monday & chemically nuke our algae from space before doing the RO on Thursday. They're running 15,000 gallons which based on some kinda rough geometry I think is about 75% of the pool. (If it were only a conical basin I could dust off my calculus; calculus class taught me to expect a lot more life situations involving conical basins even though that's possibly the least convenient shape for a basin.)

So hopefully that gets us into the ballpark, if it doesn't we'll re-evaluate I guess! Maybe that'd be a good time to start farting with hoses.

In any event, once we get the CYA to a reasonable level I'm gonna stand in the backyard with a cattle prod and zap anyone who even looks at the pool while holding dichlor or trichlor. I'm kidding but I'm kind of not kidding.

What better test kit did you order?

I went with the TF-100! Hopefully 15 CYA tests winds up being enough for the near future.

Anyway thanks again! And enjoy this picture of our aquatic robot son having flipped himself upside down again lol (he needs a couple more hose segments)

 

[magiteck]

Do you mind sharing the cost of the RO treatment? It’s a great data point for others considering the same in the future.

 

[manybothans]

Yeah not at all! They're charging around $800 to do 15K gallons.

 

[wireform]

Just my 2 cents but I'd wait till the test kit arrives so you can do a actual CYA test to accurately know the CYA level. For all you know 75% of the pool may not cut it to bring it low enough.

 

[sande005]

One thing to consider...how much were you paying (or plan on paying) for someone to come and maintain your pool? You might want to consider installing a Salt Water Chlorine Generator (SWCG). The advantages:
1. You are the only one to ever add CYA again. And it does not change.
2. You never have to buy chorine tabs or the like again.
3. If capable, you can run your pump 24/7 at low/very low speed, saving lots of energy costs.
4. After finding a balance between pump run times, and "strength" of CL generation, it will mean very consistent CL levels, so no surprise algae blooms.
5. No calcium additions, unless you do it yourself, or via fill water.
6. If you do get an algae bloom, you only need liquid chlorine to fight it.
6. HUGE amounts of free time, because you do not have to mess with the pool near as often.
Disadvantages:
1. Initial purchase/install cost. Very dependent on brand, what pool equipment you have (and configuration), how much DIY you want or can do.
2. When it is time to replace the cell element, it can be a highish cost. Measured in year or years. But that can be managed via correct initial sizing, brand, and DIY.
3. Use will cause pH to rise, so there is a need to monitor and add muriatic acid periodically.
4. Lots of scare stories about how it could destroy your heater, pool, metal items, etc. It does not. But you should read up on it here, to better combat the opinions you may hear about it.
5. You will need to study up on the details, but this site and the help available will get the best setup and lowest cost, for your particular situation, before taking the plunge.