Automation Confusion

pool512

Gold Supporter
Jul 12, 2021
77
Georgetown, TX
Pool Size
15000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
I am struggling to understand my options, and have tried talking to the local pool store, but they want to charge me for a person to come out and make a recommendation for equipment to sell me. I really just want to understand what I need, and what my options are, so here's the situation.

Last year was our first year owning a pool... we spent the Summer trying to figure out the chemistry and maintenance, which I can say we have in great shape now. We then poured a new, larger pool pad, and had somebody replumb it all with a much more efficient flow (and eliminating the chlorine tab feeder). We then finished the season by putting in a new Raypak heater.

So now, we have the Raypak heater, along with Pentair IntelliFlo VS pump for the pool, and a Hayward pump for the waterfall. We have an old electric timer box which provides power, and kicks on the waterfall when temps drop to freezing.

My concern, and the start of what I'm trying to accomplish, is that the IntelliFlo pump and heater can run separately, so the heater could be running without the pump, which seems to be a big problem? It seems like I need an automation solution to tie the two together and ensure the heater never runs without the pump. Is this understanding correct?

If I'm correct, and I need an automation solution, then I'd like to add a SWG at the same time, which I understand automation solutions can control as well.

So those would be the 2 must haves if I need to put an automation solution in (control pump and heater together, and SWG). In addition, on the wishlist front, I would like to be able to do or add the following (just a wishlist, in order of importance):
1. control from a mobile phone
2. control pool and landscape lighting
3. control waterfall pump
4. ability to add spa (control) in the future
5. add an acid pump with chemistry controller

Am I on the right path, and, if so, any recommendations? Thank you!

Brian
 
With an Intelliflo pump you should look at Pentair automation.

Spa control and an acid pump means an Intelliconnect system will not work for you.

So it is a modern IntelliCenter system or a 20 year old EasyTouch system. Unless you want to assemble your own DIY system that @rstrouse can tell you about.

 
With an Intelliflo pump you should look at Pentair automation.

Spa control and an acid pump means an Intelliconnect system will not work for you.

So it is a modern IntelliCenter system or a 20 year old EasyTouch system. Unless you want to assemble your own DIY system that @rstrouse can tell you about.

That's very helpful, and I was looking at the EasyTouch on the Pentair site, but it sounds like that's a very dated system? It wasn't clear as to what the difference with the IntelliCenter was, as they seemed to have similar features.

Also, I was trying to understand the number of Feature Circuits (FC). From the link you included, I also see Aux Circuits (AC), and I get that one requires a relay (Aux) and the other does not. How do I translate this based on my needs... IOW, I would like to control:
1. IntelliFlo VS pump (1 FC?)
2. Hayward single-speed waterfall pump (1 AC?)
3. Raypak Heater (1 FC??)
4. Pentair pool lights (today are controlled by light switch on wall... 1 AC?)
5. SWG (integrated?)
6. Future spa (??)
7. Possibly landscape lighting (1 AC?)
8. Future chem controller (??)

Given those items, how do I calculate the number of FCs needed? And I don't see mention of ACs in the Pentair collateral? Do any of the items share a circuit (i.e. pool lights and landscape lights)?

Thanks again!

Brian
 
Brian,

Aux Circuits have a 120/240-volt relay and are used to turn external devices on or off. (Example. An ET-4 have a pump/filter relay and 3 Aux relays. An ET-8 has a pump/filter relay and 7 Aux relays)

Feature Circuits operate the same as Aux circuits but do not have a relay. Feature Circuits are used to control Internal things, like pump speeds and valves.

1. IntelliFlo VS pump --- Controlled by the Pump/Filter relay. I'd reserve 3 Feature Circuit for pump speeds.
2. Hayward single-speed waterfall pump (1 AC?) --- 1 Aux circuit is correct
3. Raypak Heater (1 FC??) --- No Aux or Feature circuits needed Heater controlled by small internal low voltage relay
4. Pentair pool lights (today are controlled by light switch on wall... 1 AC?) I Aux Circuit will replace your current light switch
5. SWG (integrated?) If you plan to go with a SWCG, then you'd be foolish not to buy the package deal that comes with an internal power center and cell. --- Uses the same Pump/Filter relay as the IntelliFlo pump.
6. Future spa (??) --- What kind of spa? Integrated into the pool or a standalone spa. If you plan to have an integrated spa, you need a Pool and Spa unit, not and Pool or Spa unit.
7. Possibly landscape lighting (1 AC?) --- 1 Aux circuit is correct.
8. Future chem controller (??) --- just not needed, but depends on what system. I'd reserve an Aux Circuit.

Thanks,

Jim R
 
That's very helpful, and I was looking at the EasyTouch on the Pentair site, but it sounds like that's a very dated system? It wasn't clear as to what the difference with the IntelliCenter was, as they seemed to have similar features.

The EasyTouch design is 20+ years old.

In 4Q2018 Pentair released the IntelliCenter which is based on similar automation logic as the ET and updated the hardware. The IntelliCenter outdoor panel has a color touch screen controls, integrated WiFi and app communication (while the ET requires adding ScreenLogic), firmware updates to the panel by USB key or OTA (Over The Air), and other improved features in the software. Pentair future development is going into the IntelliCenter and not EasyTouch.

The IC costs about $500 more then the ET + Screenlogic.
 
If you go with IntelliCenter the number of feature circuits are irrelevant. This is simply because there are 32 of them in any IntelliCenter system. If you use all of them, then you and only you, will be able to operate your pool. Effectively it will be like ordering something at the Cheesecake Factory or picking out which color of blue you like best. If you have done either one of those things you know what I mean.

What you need to be looking at is how many switching relays you require. A switching relay is required for equipment that is turned on or off with a switch. So everything that is turned on or off with a communication wire like VS pumps do not require a relay. This also includes heaters although the electric heater and gas heater connections on the IntelliCenter board are not really communication ports. They are dry contacts because the relay that turns on an off the heater already exists inside the heater. These relays are what folks refer to a s AUX circuits.

The only reason why you care about this is because IntelliCenter system bundles ship with a single daughter card (plugs into another main card) that limits how many of these switches can be controlled. If you buy the wrong one you will be selling that card and looking to buy a different one since only one of these daughter cards can be installed per IntelliCenter system (load/power center).

Now with that said you mentioned that you want future spa control. You will find that there are three designations for IntelliCenter (actually this is true for all the automation systems from all the vendors) this determines how many bodies of water it is designed to control. So to break it down in IntelliCenter terms anything ending in P is a single body of water such as a pool or spa. If it ends in S it is a single shared body of water such as a pool with attached spa, meaning you can operate either the pool or the spa. An if it ends with a D then it is a dual body system, meaning it can control a pool and a spa separately.

So when looking at the different options here is how it works. Every IntelliCenter system starts with an i5P board installed as the base system.
i5P = the base system which has 5 aux circuits (relays) and can only control one body of water and two valves.
i8P = the base system with daughter card that adds 3 aux circuits and can control one body of water and two valves.
i10P = the base system with daughter card that adds 5 circuits and can control one body of water and two valves.

If you tack an S (shared) to the end of the i[x]P it adds an intake and return valve control which makes it able to control two shared bodies of water. If you tack a D to the end then it adds no valves but allows you to control two separate bodies of water. The D model only comes in the i10D because all the daughter cards for the S are the same card with different circuitry and all the daughter cards for the P same card with different circuitry.
i5PS = adds an intake and return valve and spa side remote connection.
i8PS = adds an intake and return valve, spa side remote connection, and 3 aux circuits for a total of 8 aux circuits.
i10PS = adds an intake and return valve, spa side remote connection, and 5 aux circuits for a total of 10 aux circuits.
i10D = adds additional filter relay, one electric heater connection, one gas heater connection, and 5 aux circuits for a total of 10 aux circuits.

You mentioned that you want to later control a spa. If you are planning to have a spa delivered on a flatbed truck, none of these systems will be able to control it. But if you are planning on digging another hole and constructing a spa then the i10D will allow you to control that spa. If you plan on attaching a spa to your existing pool then any of the i[x]PS units can control that.

I am a fan of the Pentair IntelliCenter systems. I have messed around with controllers from a variety of manufacturers and it amazes me what customers will put up with. Most of them from all vendors are based on aging platforms that frankly need rearchitected. While the Touch (Easy/Intelli) systems are still being sold (surprising actually) their days are numbered and what they are capable of given the architecture is pretty much at its limit. While it might be easy to think that the drivers for updating the equipment are features like web and mobile access, all of that can be done with lipstick which all of the vendors have been doing. What cannot be done without an architecture change is fully support some of the newer equipment. Sooner or later you run out of cycles, bytes, and the tribal platform knowledge to make that change. From what I see of the latest offering from Jandy and to a lesser extent from Hayward they are simply continuations of their old and tired platforms that are not very agile or expandable. Bear in mind duct tape works for a while on a broken window but you still can't really see out of it.

Finally, a word about chem controllers. There are really two types of chemistry dosing. There are those that detect demand and dose chemicals based on that demand and those that dose based on a schedule. You can ease your chemical fiddling with either one but the latter requires that you keep a close eye on it especially when the water temperature changes.

In the demand based category you have IntelliChem, RolaChem, IPS, and knockoffs from Hayward and Jandy. And in the sans sensors (senseless) category you have IntelliPh or Stenner pumps on a timer. You can do the job with either one but you will learn so much more about how your pool operates with the sensors. Keep in mind where chemistry controllers really shine is in managing pH but they are not great at sanitation. The reason for this is because chemical additions for sanitation have long latencies and ORP is a short latency measurement. Sensors for FC while expensive require conditions that make them not a good choice quite yet for pools. Controlling your pH with a chem controller and installing an SWG is about the best you can do right now and the results are really pretty good.

Frankly, there are a lot of folks on here that test and dose daily. To each their own, but that is not for me. I am either too busy or too lazy or both. I could claim that I maybe test my water once a month in the summer and almost never in the winter but I wouldn't really be telling you the truth. The truth is that my system is tested every half a second for pH and ORP. And it keeps the pH at 7.65 +/-.05 in the winter and 7.5 in the summer after the water gets to 80F. I add muriatic acid to a tank every couple of months and glance at the ORP history to see what the sanitation looks like.

I keep ORP above 550mV when the water is cold and ~700mV when the water is warming up. I do all this with an IntelliChlor IC40 and a REM Chem chemistry controller. The ORP takes a few days to change its averages when the IntelliChlor is ramped up but I have a pretty good idea as to what is going on in the pool. I need to sit down and share my findings on how chlorine affects the pH and ORP. While the conventional wisdom regarding the reactions are eventually true there is a fascinating transition that takes place while the compounds go through multiple reactions in 6.2 million test tubes.

After this loooong dissertation there is another option just in case I haven't confused you enough. If you have a bit of DIY in you that uses components that you can buy off the shelf. Here are a couple of wikis that you can peruse to learn more about them. And just to confuse you more the chem controller dovetails nicely into the IntelliCenter, EasyTouch, or IntelliTouch system.

 
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If you go with IntelliCenter the number of feature circuits are irrelevant. This is simply because there are 32 of them in any IntelliCenter system. If you use all of them, then you and only you, will be able to operate your pool. Effectively it will be like ordering something at the Cheesecake Factory or picking out which color of blue you like best. If you have done either one of those things you know what I mean.

What you need to be looking at is how many switching relays you require. A switching relay is required for equipment that is turned on or off with a switch. So everything that is turned on or off with a communication wire like VS pumps do not require a relay. This also includes heaters although the electric heater and gas heater connections on the IntelliCenter board are not really communication ports. They are dry contacts because the relay that turns on an off the heater already exists inside the heater. These relays are what folks refer to a s AUX circuits.

The only reason why you care about this is because IntelliCenter system bundles ship with a single daughter card (plugs into another main card) that limits how many of these switches can be controlled. If you buy the wrong one you will be selling that card and looking to buy a different one since only one of these daughter cards can be installed per IntelliCenter system (load/power center).

Now with that said you mentioned that you want future spa control. You will find that there are three designations for IntelliCenter (actually this is true for all the automation systems from all the vendors) this determines how many bodies of water it is designed to control. So to break it down in IntelliCenter terms anything ending in P is a single body of water such as a pool or spa. If it ends in S it is a single shared body of water such as a pool with attached spa, meaning you can operate either the pool or the spa. An if it ends with a D then it is a dual body system, meaning it can control a pool and a spa separately.

So when looking at the different options here is how it works. Every IntelliCenter system starts with an i5P board installed as the base system.
i5P = the base system which has 5 aux circuits (relays) and can only control one body of water and two valves.
i8P = the base system with daughter card that adds 3 aux circuits and can control one body of water and two valves.
i10P = the base system with daughter card that adds 5 circuits and can control one body of water and two valves.

If you tack an S (shared) to the end of the i[x]P it adds an intake and return valve control which makes it able to control two shared bodies of water. If you tack a D to the end then it adds no valves but allows you to control two separate bodies of water. The D model only comes in the i10D because all the daughter cards for the S are the same card with different circuitry and all the daughter cards for the P same card with different circuitry.
i5PS = adds an intake and return valve and spa side remote connection.
i8PS = adds an intake and return valve, spa side remote connection, and 3 aux circuits for a total of 8 aux circuits.
i10PS = adds an intake and return valve, spa side remote connection, and 5 aux circuits for a total of 10 aux circuits.
i10D = adds additional filter relay, one electric heater connection, one gas heater connection, and 5 aux circuits for a total of 10 aux circuits.

You mentioned that you want to later control a spa. If you are planning to have a spa delivered on a flatbed truck, none of these systems will be able to control it. But if you are planning on digging another hole and constructing a spa then the i10D will allow you to control that spa. If you plan on attaching a spa to your existing pool then any of the i[x]PS units can control that.

I am a fan of the Pentair IntelliCenter systems. I have messed around with controllers from a variety of manufacturers and it amazes me what customers will put up with. Most of them from all vendors are based on aging platforms that frankly need rearchitected. While the Touch (Easy/Intelli) systems are still being sold (surprising actually) their days are numbered and what they are capable of given the architecture is pretty much at its limit. While it might be easy to think that the drivers for updating the equipment are features like web and mobile access, all of that can be done with lipstick which all of the vendors have been doing. What cannot be done without an architecture change is fully support some of the newer equipment. Sooner or later you run out of cycles, bytes, and the tribal platform knowledge to make that change. From what I see of the latest offering from Jandy and to a lesser extent from Hayward they are simply continuations of their old and tired platforms that are not very agile or expandable. Bear in mind duct tape works for a while on a broken window but you still can't really see out of it.

Finally, a word about chem controllers. There are really two types of chemistry dosing. There are those that detect demand and dose chemicals based on that demand and those that dose based on a schedule. You can ease your chemical fiddling with either one but the latter requires that you keep a close eye on it especially when the water temperature changes.

In the demand based category you have IntelliChem, RolaChem, IPS, and knockoffs from Hayward and Jandy. And in the sans sensors (senseless) category you have IntelliPh or Stenner pumps on a timer. You can do the job with either one but you will learn so much more about how your pool operates with the sensors. Keep in mind where chemistry controllers really shine is in managing pH but they are not great at sanitation. The reason for this is because chemical additions for sanitation have long latencies and ORP is a short latency measurement. Sensors for FC while expensive require conditions that make them not a good choice quite yet for pools. Controlling your pH with a chem controller and installing an SWG is about the best you can do right now and the results are really pretty good.

Frankly, there are a lot of folks on here that test and dose daily. To each their own, but that is not for me. I am either too busy or too lazy or both. I could claim that I maybe test my water once a month in the summer and almost never in the winter but I wouldn't really be telling you the truth. The truth is that my system is tested every half a second for pH and ORP. And it keeps the pH at 7.65 +/-.05 in the winter and 7.5 in the summer after the water gets to 80F. I add muriatic acid to a tank every couple of months and glance at the ORP history to see what the sanitation looks like.

I keep ORP above 550mV when the water is cold and ~700mV when the water is warming up. I do all this with an IntelliChlor IC40 and a REM Chem chemistry controller. The ORP takes a few days to change its averages when the IntelliChlor is ramped up but I have a pretty good idea as to what is going on in the pool. I need to sit down and share my findings on how chlorine affects the pH and ORP. While the conventional wisdom regarding the reactions are eventually true there is a fascinating transition that takes place while the compounds go through multiple reactions in 6.2 million test tubes.

After this loooong dissertation there is another option just in case I haven't confused you enough. If you have a bit of DIY in you that uses components that you can buy off the shelf. Here are a couple of wikis that you can peruse to learn more about them. And just to confuse you more the chem controller dovetails nicely into the IntelliCenter, EasyTouch, or IntelliTouch system.

This was all great information, and convinced me to cancel the order I had just placed for an EasyTouch system. The problem I'm now finding is that it doesn't seem that the IntelliCenter is available anywhere in a configuration including SWG. Even the individual parts don't seem to be available with SWG support. Am I missing something, or are they just unavailable currently?

It does seem like the EasyTouch can be upgraded to an IntelliCenter, and I'm wondering if this may be a better approach to get a system installed for this season. Any thoughts on the idea of starting with an EasyTouch and upgrading it to an IntelliCenter?

Thanks again!

Best Regards,
Brian
 
Any thoughts on the idea of starting with an EasyTouch and upgrading it to an IntelliCenter?

Brian,

I have the EasyTouch with ScreenLogic and I can't think of any reason to upgrade to the IntelliCenter.

Don't get me wrong, if I were doing a new pool today, it would have the IntelliCenter. I'm just saying that for most people the EasyTouch will do what you need and the extra cost and effort to upgrade would not be worth it.

Thanks,

Jim R.
 
It does seem like the EasyTouch can be upgraded to an IntelliCenter, and I'm wondering if this may be a better approach to get a system installed for this season. Any thoughts on the idea of starting with an EasyTouch and upgrading it to an IntelliCenter?

You can plan to do that when the upgrade kit is available. It will cost you $500 to $1,000 more then waiting to get the IntelliCenter.

 
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The supply chain issues are at play here. Not long ago all versions were widely available. Heck if you want anything has a silicon processor in it these days, you have to pull a Radar O'Reilly on it. If it were me I wouldn't invest in the EasyTouch or IntelliTouch. I had Pentair's flagship IntelliTouch for many years before I switched to IntelliCenter. It is easier to operate, you don't need add-ons to get remote access, and it is just overall more responsive. It's control panels are better laid, are cheaper, and it is network ready on the board. It is also much more capable and the firmware can be upgraded OTA. There is already equipment on the market that includes heaters, pumps, and chemistry controllers that will never have full support on a Touch system, even with a firmware upgrade. Maybe ok today but that concrete pond will be there a while.

I don't know whether Pentair is still continuing full production for Touch systems but I would guess they are on the other side of the hill toward the end of life. It has had a good run but the processes used to create the boards, processor, and supporting chips don't have the factory space like they used to and the writing is on the wall. If it were me I would continue to look for an IntelliCenter Load Center and see if a base i5P could be found. The PS, P, or D daughter cards seem to be more available as separate parts. I do see folks on here that have managed to source them.
 

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The supply chain issues are at play here. Not long ago all versions were widely available. Heck if you want anything has a silicon processor in it these days, you have to pull a Radar O'Reilly on it. If it were me I wouldn't invest in the EasyTouch or IntelliTouch. I had Pentair's flagship IntelliTouch for many years before I switched to IntelliCenter. It is easier to operate, you don't need add-ons to get remote access, and it is just overall more responsive. It's control panels are better laid, are cheaper, and it is network ready on the board. It is also much more capable and the firmware can be upgraded OTA. There is already equipment on the market that includes heaters, pumps, and chemistry controllers that will never have full support on a Touch system, even with a firmware upgrade. Maybe ok today but that concrete pond will be there a while.

I don't know whether Pentair is still continuing full production for Touch systems but I would guess they are on the other side of the hill toward the end of life. It has had a good run but the processes used to create the boards, processor, and supporting chips don't have the factory space like they used to and the writing is on the wall. If it were me I would continue to look for an IntelliCenter Load Center and see if a base i5P could be found. The PS, P, or D daughter cards seem to be more available as separate parts. I do see folks on here that have managed to source them.
Thanks again! After a couple hours searching online (finding nothing) and calling stores (the old fashioned method), I found a store in California that had a complete IntelliCenter package with SWG and personality kit. It was only $100 more than the EasyTouch I ordered too!
 
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Well done Radar! Again I am shocked that PB are still installing ET and IT. I guess there always has to be a Klinger and not everybody can be Colonel Potter. Either they are too lazy to learn something new or are just trying to get out of the war.
 
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