Another New Pool Owner

[Dmanderson21]

Hi everyone, another new pool owner here! Thought I would take a moment to introduce myself, say thank you for all the great information, and ask a few questions.

We just finished building a pool here in Houston, TX and the builder fired everything up on Monday. They are still running point on the start-up process and will be coming out next week to walk me through all the nuts and bolts to hand off responsibilities. In the meantime, I've been reading everything I can regarding pool maintenance to make sure I understand what to do when the ball is in my court - that's how I stumbled across this site. I couldn't be happier to have found this place because so many other sites don't stop to explain the whats and whys regarding the chemicals and balance. And when I talk to my friends with pools they say "just hire a pool guy" but that's just not really my style - I had to get rid of my lawn guy because he didn't cut the grass to my liking but I digress...

Anyway, when I arrive home today I should have a Taylor K-2006 testing kit waiting for me so that I can run all my preliminary numbers but in reading all the information in the Pool School, I have several questions:

1) It seems like all of the chemical levels can be adjusted up and down with the exception of CYA which can only come down with water replacement. How much cyanuric acid would be required at startup to reach that level and how quickly can this number change? I have no real reference point to go on from experience and the recommended range here is 30-50. The basic pool schedule indicates the CYA isn't tested too frequently so I'm guessing it's not a frequently changing number but I watched the builder put 2 lbs of cyanuric acid in the skimmer and then throw 10 chlorine pucks in-line feeder "for the first week of startup" and am concerned my level could be already higher than recommended without even knowing. Maybe I'm just overthinking it. Additionally, my pool is in a backyard with 0 other real landscaping currently and while we intend to add a few Queen Palms, I believe the pool is going to get direct sunlight from about 8AM to 5PM pretty much daily (subject to seasonal changes on the time). Long-term I'm guessing that may push me up to the higher end of the recommended range but would it be best to target 30 now and work my way up if the FC levels change too dramatically? I've attached a picture (I think) to show my pool and lack of shade.

2) To a point in the above, my builder started the pool with the chlorine pucks (10), cyanuric acid (2 lbs), and muriatic acid (2 gallons) then said he would be coming back later in the week to add calcium because adding it then would cancel out the cyanuric acid. I watched him test all the levels of the water before adding chemicals (i.e., from the hose) but it was before I found this site so I had not real bearing or understanding of what the levels meant. Should I be concerned about the startup here? I'm probably being irrational because he actually referred me to the site and says he learned a lot here but since he's not in position to do daily monitoring during the startup I understand why he'd use the chlorine pucks for the week. I just don't want to end up with a headache that needs to be managed right out of the gates to get on track with the TFPC method.

3) I believe I read somewhere that the iOS app to access the same Pool Math calculator is called "Pool-Calculator" but it looks like the app has not been updated since 2011 so before I plunk down money to buy it I just want to make sure that's the recommended app? Alternatively, if there's another app preference that would be helpful to know.

I think that's it for right now but I'm sure I'll have many more questions as I learn and grow. My signature should have all the applicable information regarding my pool but please let me know if you have any questions.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Jimrahbe]

D,

Welcome to TFP.. a great place to be...

Nice looking pool. I suggest you just take a deep breath and relax. Taking care of your pool should be fun, not a worry. Following the TFP process will help you make sure it stays fun. Great start by getting a good test kit.

Let the PB do his thing and then once he turns the pool over to you, we can help point you in the right direction. I doubt anything he will do in the next few days will make much of a difference.

The very first step in deciding what to do with your pool water is to test it with your new kit. Once you report real data about your pool water, we can help you decide what to do next.

Please report your data in the following sequence..

FC
CC
pH
TA
CH
CYA

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Dmanderson21]

Thanks Jim. Tested tonight for the first time. Had to do some tests twice because of user error but got the following levels:

FC 8.8
CC 0
pH 7.4
TA 90
CH 240
CYA 60

in comparing to the appropriate levels I guess the pool seems to be within thresholds but FC/CYA do seem to be at the high end of things while CH is just a touch low.

I found the CYA test to be the most difficult to gauge based on the disappearing of the black dot. My eyes aren't the best so the first time it was over 100 and I knew that couldn't be correct. When I mix in the testing solution should it be shaken or swirled? I just swirled similar to everything else but maybe that's not right.

I'll wait for the PB to officially hand things over to me then run through all the levels again to see if I get more efficient and simply monitor FC and pH in the interim.

Is the Pool-Calculator app the correct iOS app to download (if you know)?


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[Jimrahbe]

D,

Your numbers looks ok, but you really don't want you CYA to get much higher.. and I agree, it is the hardest test to get a real feel for..

Sorry, but the only app I have used is an Android App called "Pool Pal". It uses the TFP standards. I'm not sure if it is available for an Apple or not.

So, how to you plan to chlorinate your pool going forward? You have the following options:

1. Continue to use the 3" tabs, which will continue to increase your CYA until the chlorine level is no longer enough to kill the algae. You will then need to drain the pool and start all over. (Not the TFP way)
2. You can convert to a Saltwater pool and use a SWCG. This is what I have and love it. Very low maintenance.
3. You can add liquid chlorine every day, or so, to maintain an adequate supply of FC. This works great just have to continually buy and add bleach.
4. You can install a Stenner Chlorine pump system. You buy the chlorine in bulk and fill up a 10 gallon tank. The pump then adds a little chlorine several times a day. Another great system.


Jim R.

 

[bobandsherry]

Hey, enjoy the new pool. Mine was just finished in July and info here has been great to help me maintain my own pool. I've been using Pool Pal (mentioned above) to track my readings. There is a member here who is creating their own web based app, you can enter your tests via any browser. Here's a link to thread here on it.

 

[MarianParoo]

Sweet pool and set-up! Welcome to the forum.

If it were my pool, I would sneak out and take the pucks out of the chlorinator ASAP. You don't want your CYA to get any higher at this time of year.

For a calculator use the link posted in this tutorial: Pool School - PoolMath

Calcium will not cancel out your CYA.

I suggest that you test your "fill water" (what comes from your hose to replenish your water level from evaporation and backwashing). Don't bother with the CYA test as fill water will have none. Record those values somewhere in a permanent file.

Also, congrats on getting the best testkit! In the future, you can use a 10ml water sample for your FC/CC test. The directions are on the inner lid of the kit. It will use less reagents.

 

[MarianParoo]

(Sorry I missed the CYA question. Here's the answer): Shake, not swirl, the CYA mixture for at least 30 seconds. Reread those directions on the inner lid of your kit and report your new result. Do the test in full sun with the sun to your back.

 

[Dmanderson21]

Thanks everyone!

I was lying in bed this morning thinking I must've done something wrong with the CYA test. The pool math calculator says it'd take 5 lbs to get up to 50 from 0 and I know the pool builder didn't even put half of that in. In addition to only swirling the mixture together I was also testing after the sun went down under the patio light. I knew it wasn't optimal but I was excited to get my feet wet with the testing. Anyway, I'll retest today and also thought about taking a water sample to the pool store simply to get confirmation on the numbers.

Jim - to your question, I'll be stopping by Wal-Mart this morning to pick up bleach. I've been so impressed by the pictures of everyone's pools on here that I'm wanting to do the TFP method right from the start. I don't mind spending a few minutes a day testing and adding chemicals to the pool - it's way better than sitting in front of the tv after I put the kiddos to bed.


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[kimkats]

Oh happy day! A new pool with a owner that found TFP from the start! SWEET!

-your siggy is spot on!! Well done!

-phone app-no idea LOL I just use pool math (look in my siggy) and keep a journal of my test results in a small notebook. This is very important as it will help you learn your pool. Even put in a note about big weather events. That has helped me learn what a big rain will do to my pool so I am ready.

-CYA test (NOT my fav. test at all)-GLANCE in the tube ONLY. If you stare you will see the dot. Do it outside, with the sun to your back. Hold the tube at your tummy. You can do this test over an over again with the same water. Just pour it back and forth until you find your average.

We would LOVE to see more pics of your pool!

Have you seen this page?:

Pool School - Start-up New Plaster

The no swimming for 30 days depends on the type of start up used. Share this with your PB as he holds the warranty card.

You are off to a great start and it will only get better once your plaster cures!

Kim

 

[MarianParoo]

Let us know your results. Btw, don't bother taking a sample to the pool store. CYA is the test they most often get wrong.

 

[Dmanderson21]

Thanks Kim! Yes I looked at the new plaster page but my PB really didn't seem to use any of the methods. He fired up the pump, dumped some chemicals in it and then scheduled a "pool school" for Wednesday where he's going to walk me through everything. That's why I'm probably feeling a little overwhelmed. He said we could swim in it though and the girls did for about an hour but otherwise it's been a little cooler lately and they have after school activities so the pool hasn't seen much action other than my nightly brushing of the plaster.

I've almost certainly incorrectly tested cya though but that's okay it's a learning experience! Good to know that I can retest with the same water.


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[kimkats]

The day of or the day after he plastered the pool did they come out and acid wash it? It would be before they started putting water in it. That is the most common start up method. If he says you can swim now chances are that is what he did.

After a while you will get the hang of it. Make sure to ask any and all questions here. We know what it is like to not be sure and want to check. Easier to ask then have to undo a mistake.

Kim

 

[Dmanderson21]

Yes, they acid washed it the day after plaster then immediately started filling the pool. I guess I thought it wasn't the acid start-up because what they did not do was add the muriatic acid and balance the pool before starting up the equipment. They just fired everything up and added chemicals at the same time.

I did go ahead and take a sample to the pool store really just to double-check all of my readings to ensure I was doing things correctly. The store owner was using the same testing kit so just watching to make sure I did things correctly was a big help. They verified every last reading, including the CYA at 60. They said the FC was high at 8 but the range for such CYA is 7-9 so it doesn't seem "high" - though he said I may be "overthinking" it Everything else seems within acceptable ranges so I'm just going to roll with it and bring the CYA down naturally over time as water gets replaced then lower my FC as an offset. And the water really is nice and clear so it seems we're off to a solid start.

Stopped by Wal-Mart on the way home and picked up 2 big jugs of Great Value 8.25% household bleach (121 oz each). I have 2 gallons of muriatic acid on hand as well so hopefully I'm in good position going forward. I really do appreciate everyone's help!

I haven't taken too many pictures yet but here are a few. I'm going to be landscaping and building a pergola myself so I needed the builder to clear out before I could get working on those. So stage 1 is complete but I still have some plants, pergola, and lighting to add as I have time.

 

[abycat]

The pool looks awesome! If I was you I would have my fc from 7-8 for a target. my indoor with 30 cya runs between 5-7.5. I'm running a swg though. Mine is also commercial so I like to run a higher fc level. I'm using borates In my pool and tub and love it so consider that addition as well.

 

[Dmanderson21]

I made my first pH adjustment yesterday as the levels were steadily drifting up and reached 7.8. Since it's a new plaster pool and the trend was steady increase I went ahead and added a cup of muratic acid to the pool to back it down to 7.5ish.

Seemed like a very small amount to be adding - did I jump the gun, or is the underlying idea to test daily and make the small adjustments (whatever they may be) so that you're always on top of things? I guess what I'm really wondering is if my pH really needed adjusting since it was in the upper end of acceptable range? Given the trend I figured it was beets to stay within range than come out tonight and test to 8.0.


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[pooldv]

It is fine to do that right now while your TA is above 70. Once your TA is below 70 I would wait until pH gets to 8.0 before lowering to 7.5.

 

[Dmanderson21]

Why would I want to lower my TA below 70? Based on the recommended levels for a plaster pool the TA is within range.

Sorry if that's a dumb question. Surprisingly, I never took high school chemistry (supplemented multiple years of physics and math) but as a result I lack the basic understanding of the properties of each of these chemicals. For example, I've read on here that pH below 6.8 can cause damage to metal parts so I assume a low number means the water is acidic and a high number means it's "basic". I can wrap my head around why acidic would be bad but I don't know what the implications of pH at 8.0+ really means.

On the TA side, I'm having trouble understanding this:
"Total alkalinity indicates the water's ability to buffer PH changes. Buffering means you need to use a larger quantity of a chemical to change the PH. At low TA levels, the PH tends to swing around wildly. At high TA levels, the PH tends to drift up."

I think what is implied is that low TA levels have a low buffer rate and therefore 1 cup of muriatic acid with a TA of 30 would change the pH much more than with a TA of 70. Am I understanding correctly? Why would higher TA cause the pH to drift up? Simply because the water's ability to integrate the muriatic acid is muted and therefore more difficult to dial in the correct amount of acid to add to lower the pH?

 

[pooldv]

You are somewhat correct except that higher TA also pushes pH up. Lowering TA will reduce upward pressure on PH down to a point. There is a point where TA is too low to effectively buffer PH swings and pH becomes erratic. This happens in a few pools at 60, more pools at 50 and most pools at 40. TA and pH will often, not always, reach equilibrium with the atmosphere at some point, carbon dioxide stops out gassing. That point is often TA between 50 and 60 and pH at 7.8. At this point your pH and TA will remain stable. There are people out there who haven't adjusted pH or TA in years. I'm not one of them but my pool uses a lot less acid to manage pH when TA is at 50 than it does when TA is at 70.

The range is there for a reason, some pools are better at 60 and others are better at 80. If your pH is stable with TA at 70 then 70 is the right number. If pH rises then lower TA to 60 and see what happens.

The risk of pH being above 7.8 is calcium scaling on your pool surface and in your SWG cell, if applicable. Pool School - Calcium Scaling

 

[Dmanderson21]

Okay thanks that helps! So really it sounds like in this startup period my pH may drift up (6 months to a year even for a new pool) but over time as long as I'm monitoring these levels then the pool may naturally balance out (or at least reach a reasonably stable point). That is, as long as the water is clear and I'm not using a ton of acid each month to keep the pH level acceptable, then there really isn't any real need to drive down the TA?

 

[pooldv]

That is correct. New plaster will put upward pressure on PH that needs to be managed with acid. Running waterfalls or bubblers will also push PH up. Adding acid to lower your pH from 7.8/8.0 to 7.6 will slowly lower your TA over time. As TA gradually lowers you will use less acid and have less pH rise until pH stops rising, if you're lucky. Or if you only have to add a little acid every few weeks or once a month to keep PH at 7.8 or lower.

The only people who really need to drive TA down quickly are those with fill water TA of 200, 300 and up. Or if you are tired of adding acid every few days to a week and you just want to get it over with and quickly lower your TA from 120-150 to 60-80 and be done with it.