aeration vs. "pH Up"

[P00LNerd]

The usual advice I see on this forum is to aerate to bring pH back up, after any additions of muriatic or cyanuric acid, when adjusting TA or CYA levels. But in our cool climate, my pool temperature drops quite fast when aerating, which is costing me a bloody fortune in heater run time.

Is there any real penalty for just using pH Up, rather than aerating, when trying to lower TA or increase CYA? A few tens of dollars worth of pH Up could likely save me a few hundred dollars in my electric bill.

 

[reggiehammond]

pH up is baking soda - it'll just raise your TA.

TA is not a major concern to be dealt with daily; it will cause your pH to rise, but it's not something you need to fight actively if your CSI is ok to protect your SWCG from scale.

Aeration can be as simple as "swimming." Kids are excellent aerators.

You mention CYA - the only thing that adds CYA... is adding CYA. To lower CYA either takes a lot of time or dilution.

 

[ajw22]

Why are you aerating?

Why are you trying to lower your TA?

A TA of 90 is ok. Just maintain your pH.

The less tinkering you do with your water chemistry the more time you will have to swim before your pool season is over with.

 

[P00LNerd]

pH up is baking soda - it'll just raise your TA.

That explains a lot. My TA ended up high in part due to measurement error, but now I know it was also in part due to using a lot of pH Up early in the season. I was constantly finding my pH low early in the season, whether due to CYA addition from Frog or other causes, and pH Up was my solution at the time.

TA is not a major concern to be dealt with daily; it will cause your pH to rise, but it's not something you need to fight actively if your CSI is ok to protect your SWCG from scale.

My CSI has dipped as low as -0.95 when adding muriatic acid to bring TA down from it's prior 140 ppm, but has more often been running -0.65 to -0.45. I've basically been adding enough muriatic to drive pH down to 7.1, then aerating back up to 7.8. I had been gaining about 0.2 pH per day, with my aerating rig, although just made another improvement that might get me closer to 0.3 per day.

Pool Math says my TA is high, but it seems lowering it closer to center of range will make my CSI drop even farther, at least assuming CSI trends the same direction as the LSI given by the Taylor Watergram.

Aeration can be as simple as "swimming." Kids are excellent aerators.

I'll have to get them out there more! It was 64F and rainy this morning, but heading toward 87F later. We probably only use the pool 30 - 60 minutes x 4 days per week.

You mention CYA - the only thing that adds CYA... is adding CYA. To lower CYA either takes a lot of time or dilution.

Yep. My CYA was on target for liquid chlorine, which is what I had been using. But I just converted to SWG, with which comes a recommendation for higher CYA, so I just picked up a few pounds of dry CYA at the store this morning.

 

[P00LNerd]

Why are you aerating?

Why are you trying to lower your TA?

It was 140 ppm two weeks ago.

A TA of 90 is ok. Just maintain your pH.

It's only at 90 ppm today, thanks to a few gallons of muriatic and many days aerating. But Pool Math is still recommending to lower it a little further, and I was told to "just follow Pool Math".

The less tinkering you do with your water chemistry the more time you will have to swim before your pool season is over with.

??? I've never missed a day, or even an hour, of useable swim time due to chemical adds. I do them overnight, or when the weather is too poor to use the pool. 64F and raining this morning, perfect time to add some CYA. No one is swimming in this weather.

 

[ajw22]

It's only at 90 ppm today, thanks to a few gallons of muriatic and many days aerating. But Pool Math is still recommending to lower it a little further, and I was told to "just follow Pool Math".

TA of 90 is fine. Don't become a slave to the robot and don't follow PoolMath blindly.

You can continue with the aerating you have been doing or stop and with your TA at 90.

Using pHUP will undo the good work you have done lowering your TA.

 

[cledee]

The usual advice I see on this forum is to aerate to bring pH back up, after any additions of muriatic or cyanuric acid, when adjusting TA or CYA levels. But in our cool climate, my pool temperature drops quite fast when aerating, which is costing me a bloody fortune in heater run time.

Is there any real penalty for just using pH Up, rather than aerating, when trying to lower TA or increase CYA? A few tens of dollars worth of pH Up could likely save me a few hundred dollars in my electric bill.

When you want to increase just PH, use Borax.
PH up is baking soda and will increase mostly Alkalinity and lightly increase PH.
Washing Soda will increase both Akalinity and PH.

Like the previous member said, TA of 90 is fine. You want to control your PH, so when it gets above 7.8, lower it to 7.2 and wait for it to rise again naturally. For Alkalinity once it gets below 60ppm, then I would consider raising it again.

 

[P00LNerd]

TA of 90 is fine. Don't become a slave to the robot and don't follow PoolMath blindly.

I'm fine with that, but be aware, there are differing opinions on this attitude. I was previously admonished for even having the gall to question the absolute wisdom of PoolMath.

On the flip side, most of the corrections are easy enough that I don't mind nailing it right to the middle of the range. Taking the present low CYA condition as an example, it's not like adding a pound of CYA here and there really costs me much in time, effort, or dollars.

 

[P00LNerd]

Like the previous member said, TA of 90 is fine. You want to control your PH, so when it gets above 7.8, lower it to 7.2 and wait for it to rise again naturally. For Alkalinity once it gets below 60ppm, then I would consider raising it again.

That's what I've been doing, but using a sprinkler to speed the pH recovery. But when I lower pH to 7.2, my CSI goes crazy low, like -0.9 or -0.95. I'm not sure if that even matters for a vinyl pool, maybe more for my paver bullnose tile surround, but it sure makes pool math throw some warning messages.

 

[ajw22]

I'm fine with that, but be aware, there are differing opinions on this attitude. I was previously admonished for even having the gall to question the absolute wisdom of PoolMath.

Be aware, PoolMath is nothing more then a glorified calculator.

No reason to question the calculations PoolMath does. But PoolMath does not take into many other factors around your pool when it spits out recommendations.

It is up to you, the human, to put the PoolMath recommendations in context of your pool.

I am trying to help give you that context.

Your welcome.

On the flip side, most of the corrections are easy enough that I don't mind nailing it right to the middle of the range. Taking the present low CYA condition as an example, it's not like adding a pound of CYA here and there really costs me much in time, effort, or dollars.

Anywhere in ranges are equally good. That is why ranges are stated. There is no reward for hitting the middle of a range.

 

[ajw22]

But when I lower pH to 7.2, my CSI goes crazy low, like -0.9 or -0.95. I'm not sure if that even matters for a vinyl pool,

It does not.

maybe more for my paver bullnose tile surround,

It does not.

but it sure makes pool math throw some warning messages.

Learn to provide your human intelligence and ignore the robot. PoolMath does not have all the context of your pool environment.

I see nothing in your signature that is sensitive to low CSI.

For your pool you should turn off CSI Tracking and it will shut PoolMath up.

 

[cledee]

That's what I've been doing, but using a sprinkler to speed the pH recovery. But when I lower pH to 7.2, my CSI goes crazy low, like -0.9 or -0.95. I'm not sure if that even matters for a vinyl pool, maybe more for my paver bullnose tile surround, but it sure makes pool math throw some warning messages.

I completely disabled the CSI. Just remember that these are guidelines, just because Pool Math is giving you this warning doesn't mean you have to get it back to perfect levels. Think of all the people that just use tablets for chlorine. They have acidic pool water, probably in the 6.2 to 6.8 range and it's not catastrophic for several years. You being at 7.2 PH for a few weeks is not bad and at 90 PPM ALK, I think you will be back to 7.4 to 7.6 in no time. My pool seems to stay at around 7.3 to 7.4 PH and my ALK is around 70. Why would I add chems to try to get it to 7.5-7.6? Just let it naturally happen. The app is constantly telling me to add things, but as long as I'm in the ranges 7.2 to 7.8, no reason for me to add chems.

 

[reggiehammond]

I completely disabled the CSI. Just remember that these are guidelines, just because Pool Math is giving you this warning doesn't mean you have to get it back to perfect levels. Think of all the people that just use tablets for chlorine. They have acidic pool water, probably in the 6.2 to 6.8 range and it's not catastrophic for several years. You being at 7.2 PH for a few weeks is not bad and at 90 PPM ALK, I think you will be back to 7.4 to 7.6 in no time. My pool seems to stay at around 7.3 to 7.4 PH and my ALK is around 70. Why would I add chems to try to get it to 7.5-7.6? Just let it naturally happen. The app is constantly telling me to add things, but as long as I'm in the ranges 7.2 to 7.8, no reason for me to add chems.

Disabling CSI while using a SWCG is a bad idea. SWCG are very susceptible to scaling inside the cell with positive CSI water. It's something to take seriously as poor CSI can lead to cell failure, due to scale, in mere weeks.

With that said, I echo the idea to not micro-manage the water when close to the ranges.

 

[Newdude]

Disabling CSI while using a SWCG is a bad idea.

In the northeast with vinyl and pool friendly fill water, my CSI bounces between -0.9 and-2.0.

OPs will be similar with no calcium needed for the heat pump. There simply isn't any to scale.

 

[ajw22]

In the northeast with vinyl and pool friendly fill water, my CSI bounces between -0.9 and-2.0.

OPs will be similar with no calcium needed for the heat pump. There simply isn't any to scale.

Context matters again. PoolMath is not aware of location and fill water chemistry.

 

[proavia]

I'm fine with that, but be aware, there are differing opinions on this attitude. I was previously admonished for even having the gall to question the absolute wisdom of PoolMath.

PoolMath isn't smart or wise - it's a simple calculator for pool chemistry use.
It does the calculations for you and then you need to determine what, if anything, needs to be done.
Just because it may provide a recommendation doesn't mean you should blindly follow it.

There is zero reason for you to drive pH down to the low 7's.
Quit trying to "fix" a non-existent "issue" in ypur vinyl lined pool.

 

[P00LNerd]

Just because it may provide a recommendation doesn't mean you should blindly follow it.

Quit trying to "fix" a non-existent "issue" in ypur vinyl lined pool.

Honestly, it's difficult for a new user to know which recommendations are valid, or which should be ignored. There is a lot of conflicting information out there.

Context matters again. PoolMath is not aware of location and fill water chemistry.

Typical fill water here has total hardness (Ca + Mg) = 250 ppm, but I don't know what part of that is Ca vs. Mg. I had also suspected high CSI and scaling would be a problem for us, since the water here just eats household appliances and plumbing fixtures, if not treated.

I'll do a test on the fill water for CH and TA later.

 

[Newdude]

There is a lot of conflicting information out there.

Please ask anytime, as you did. We'll be happy to set you up with a custom plan.

I have a love/hate with other threads, because said newb often doesn't inherently understand why those threads don't apply to them. For old-old threads, the info may not have aged well on top of having a different equation.

 

[ajw22]

Honestly, it's difficult for a new user to know which recommendations are valid, or which should be ignored. There is a lot of conflicting information out there.

Welcome to the Internet.

You need to judge the credability of the source posting.

Typical fill water here has total hardness (Ca + Mg) = 250 ppm, but I don't know what part of that is Ca vs. Mg. I had also suspected high CSI and scaling would be a problem for us, since the water here just eats household appliances and plumbing fixtures, if not treated.

I'll do a test on the fill water for CH and TA later.

Your CH 8 days ago was 120. You have a long way before you need to worry about high CH and scaling in your pool.

It is hard to get CH of 120 in the pool with 250 fill water.

 

[Newdude]

Typical fill water here has total hardness (Ca + Mg) = 250 ppm. I'm surprised to hear that's considered low! I had also suspected high CSI and scaling would be a problem for us, since the water here just eats household appliances and plumbing fixtures, if not treated.

Aaaaaaaand context matters yet again. Lol.

Your CH probably won't rise much with lots of rain to balance the evaporation, but it may rise some during dry spells. Keep us posted if the CH starts climbing.