About to Sign Agreement Please Review My Pool Build and Offer Suggestions

[Riddle Me This]

To ALL the amazing contributors at Trouble Free Pool, first allow me to thank each and every one of you for what you do. You help far more people than those who actually register and start a thread. On behalf of all those you have helped and those you will eventually help, please accept my sincere gratitude.

As for me, after much research, I am about to take the leap and sign an agreement with my selected pool builder. The Design is simple, but the pool will be mine. If you would be so kind, PLEASE review my pool build, answer a few questions and offer any suggestions/opinions you may have.

Set Up

• 34 x 18 Geometric Gunite Pool (Requested no reused rebound)
• Depth 3.5 – 5’
• Wet Edge Pebble Interior
• 2 Skimmers (Requested minimal 2.5” pipes, dedicated plumbing to each skimmer)
• 6 Returns
• 3 LED lights
• 2 Sheer Descent Waterfall 12”
• Tile waterline
• Considering no main drain.
• 6 X 6 Spa (raised 12”)
  • 6 Jets
  • 2 Returns
  • 1.5 HP Blower
  • 1 LED light
• 525 Sq. Ft Swim Clear Cartridge Filter (Hayward C5030)
• 40K Salt Cell with Ozone (Hayward TCELLS340W)
• 400K BTU Heater (Hayward HDF400)
• 2.7 HP VSP (Hayward PWR End-Tristar G3 SPX3206Z1VSPE)
• 1.1 HP Single speed pump for waterfall. (Hayward Tristar SP3200X10)
• Auto fill
• Omni controller and actuators
• Cement Pavers
• Dome Enclosure

Questions

1. With the 1.1 HP single speed pump for assigned to the two waterfalls only, would it make sense to increase the pump to 1.85hp VSP ($800 increase) and tie the pump to both the waterfalls and the 6 Jets in the Spa?
2. Should I remove the main drain? (see skimmers and returns)
3. Should I consider having 2 of the 6 returns placed at the lower end of the pool’s wall to help improve circulation and diffusion at the bottom of the pool? (see question #2)
4. Should I keep the auto fill or just ensure I secure auto drain? I live in Central Florida?
5. Should I consider increasing the 12” waterfalls to 24” ($195 increase for each)
6. ANY other suggestions, ANY AT ALL, you would recommend?

Thank you all in advance!!!


For Fun:

Riddle Me This: I am not alive, but I grow; I don’t have lungs, but I need oxygen; I don’t have a mouth but water kills me. What am I?

 

[kimkats]

Hi and welcome to TFP!

It looks like you are going for a sport/play pool. The corners for the steps and bench concern me a bit (I am a major "mama bear"). I worry someone will be playing in the pool and run into them causing them to get hurt. I would consider making the bench run the full length of the pool to avoid this concern.

I would also think about taking the pool to a full 4' deep through out the pool. I know that at my height 5'5" I do not like 5' of water. It hits me right below my mouth. It is not fun to stand in. At a 3'5" depth you cannot do a full swim stroke without scrapping your knuckles. Another reason to go to 4'.

Make sure you talk to your PB about WATER depth no matter the depth you pick. It needs to be measured from the bottom of the pool to the middle of the skimmer opening. Some measure it from the bottom of the pool to the coping. If done that way you lose some inches of water depth.

With your depth or mine you do not really need or want a main drain. With these depths they will be more of a toe stubbier than anything. You can move a return towards the bottom like you talk about.

 

[ajw22]

Welcome to TFP.

• 6 Returns

3 returns are sufficient. Where will the 6 returns be placed?

• 3 LED lights

What models?

Where will the lights be placed?

Lights should face away from the house.

• 2 Sheer Descent Waterfall 12”

What model?

What GPM does the Installation Manual say is needed for the desired throw?

• Considering no main drain.

Not necessary with play pool depths.

• 6 X 6 Spa (raised 12”)
  • 6 Jets
  • 2 Returns
  • 1.5 HP Blower
  • 1 LED light

How are returns different then jets?

What GPM flow do you expect from the spa jets?

Equipment Pad Best Practices - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

• 525 Sq. Ft Swim Clear Cartridge Filter (Hayward C5030)

Good

• 40K Salt Cell with Ozone (Hayward TCELLS340W)

Ozone unnecessary in an outdoor pool.

Ozone Systems - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

• 400K BTU Heater (Hayward HDF400)
• 2.7 HP VSP (Hayward PWR End-Tristar G3 SPX3206Z1VSPE)
• 1.1 HP Single speed pump for waterfall. (Hayward Tristar SP3200X10)

OK

• Auto fill

Model?

AutoFill - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

• Omni controller and actuators

OmniPL?

Hayward OmniPL - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

• Dome Enclosure

Dome up 12 months out of the year?

Questions

1. With the 1.1 HP single speed pump for assigned to the two waterfalls only, would it make sense to increase the pump to 1.85hp VSP ($800 increase) and tie the pump to both the waterfalls and the 6 Jets in the Spa?

Will you want to run the waterfalls and spa jets simultaneously?

What are the flow rate requirements for the waterfalls and spa jets?

1. Should I remove the main drain? (see skimmers and returns)

Yes

1. Should I consider having 2 of the 6 returns placed at the lower end of the pool’s wall to help improve circulation and diffusion at the bottom of the pool? (see question #2)

No

1. Should I keep the auto fill or just ensure I secure auto drain? I live in Central Florida?

Autofill is nice to have but problematic.

1. Should I consider increasing the 12” waterfalls to 24” ($195 increase for each)

What is the difference in GPM requirements, and how will it affect your pump and plumbing?

1. ANY other suggestions, ANY AT ALL, you would recommend?

Construction Best Practices - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Equipment Pad Best Practices - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

How to select pool equipment - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

For Fun:

Riddle Me This: I am not alive, but I grow; I don’t have lungs, but I need oxygen; I don’t have a mouth but water kills me. What am I?

Fire!

 

[pjt]

Depth 3.5 – 5’

3.5' is a bit too shallow. I'd suggest 4' for your shallow end. I like 5' for the "deep" end since most people can still comfortably stand. I have a 4-5-4 profile on my pool and it works great.

Considering no main drain

It's optional, but I wouldn't recommend it for your pool.

ensure I secure auto drain?

Yes, get an overflow drain. Try to have the drain on the upper part of your tile so you can harvest rainfall and minimize using fill water.

 

[Riddle Me This]

Kimkats: Thank you so much for your input:

It looks like you are going for a sport/play pool. The corners for the steps and bench concern me a bit (I am a major "mama bear"). I worry someone will be playing in the pool and run into them causing them to get hurt. I would consider making the bench run the full length of the pool to avoid this concern.

I would also think about taking the pool to a full 4' deep through out the pool. I know that at my height 5'5" I do not like 5' of water. It hits me right below my mouth. It is not fun to stand in. At a 3'5" depth you cannot do a full swim stroke without scrapping your knuckles. Another reason to go to 4'.

Make sure you talk to your PB about WATER depth no matter the depth you pick. It needs to be measured from the bottom of the pool to the middle of the skimmer opening. Some measure it from the bottom of the pool to the coping. If done that way you lose some inches of water depth.

With your depth or mine you do not really need or want a main drain. With these depths they will be more of a toe stubbier than anything. You can move a return towards the bottom like you talk about.

We didn't consider the corners being an injury concern. I believe the stairs may provide a buffer for the shallow end, but we may need to reconsider the deep end corners. We went with a 3.5" shallow end because we have a six year old. And, while we know kids grow extremely fast, we want our kids to be able to enjoy the pool from day one. Would you recommend I still reconsider 3.5" shallow end? I was aware of the potential pool depth discrepancy from my time lurking on this forum. However, thank you very much for the reminder. I will see if I can have the depth measured from the bottom of the pool to the middle of skimmer opening included in the contract. Indeed, if it's not written, it did not happen.

Riddle Me This: What question can you never answer yes to truthfully?

 

[Riddle Me This]

PJT: Thank you for taking the time to read my post and respond.

3.5' is a bit too shallow. I'd suggest 4' for your shallow end. I like 5' for the "deep" end since most people can still comfortably stand. I have a 4-5-4 profile on my pool and it works great.

You and Kimkats share the same thought. Here was our reasoning: We went with a 3.5" shallow end because we have a six year old. We want our kids to be able to enjoy the pool from day one. I am certainly open to continued feedback. would you still recommend a 4" shallow end? Also, thank you for the overflow drain photo. I picture is indeed worth a thousand words.

Riddle Me This: What question can you never answer yes to truthfully?

 

[Riddle Me This]

Ajw22: Your level of detail requires some additional homework on my end. AND, I truly and honestly thank you. I would like to also thank you for the additional reading, I will dive in soon. Here's what I can answer now.

3 returns are sufficient.

The 6 returns are standard for the builder.​

Where will the 6 returns be placed?

I was thinking 4 on the top aimed properly to create a vortex so they work in cohesion with the 2 skimmers.​

The other 2 I was thinking either bottom wall for water diffusion and circulation at the lower end of the pool or perhaps 1 at the stairs and 1 at the deep end bench​

3 LED Lights: What models?

Hayward CrystaLogic 160 1.5-inch LED Light​

Where will the lights be placed?

one by the deep end bench, directed away from the house, one in the middle of the pool directed away from the house, one between the stairs and the spa pointing towards the deep end.​

2 Sheer Descent Waterfall 12” What model?

I believe they will be Hayward sheer 500​

What GPM does the Installation Manual say is needed for the desired throw?

1 gallon per minute per inch of width (24GPM for both)​

​

How are returns different than jets?

My apologies. My understanding is there will be 6 allocated for therapeutic jets and 2 returns for returning filtered and disinfected water back into the system.​

What GPM flow do you expect from the spa jets?

15 - 20GPM.​

Standard pipe size for builder is 2.5", I have requested 3" for the spa plumbing. I am not sure if the builder will accommodate, and if so at what cost?​

Ozone unnecessary in an outdoor pool.

Builder is including ozone as a no cost addition.​

Auto fill Model?

Hayward WL010 Water Level Control Kit: If I removed auto fill, builder states they will still provide an overflow at no additional cost.​

Omni controller and actuators OmniPL?

Yes OmniPL​

Dome up 12 months out of the year?

Screened enclosure. Yes during football season we will open the roof so God can watch his favorite team play. JK​

Questions
With the 1.1 HP single speed pump for assigned to the two waterfalls only, would it make sense to increase the pump to 1.85hp VSP ($800 increase) and tie the pump to both the waterfalls and the 6 Jets in the Spa?
Will you want to run the waterfalls and spa jets simultaneously?

Not necessarily.​

What are the flow rate requirements for the waterfalls and spa jets?

Waterfalls: 1 gallon per minute per inch of width (24GPM for both)​

Spa Jets: 10-20 gallons per minute (60GPM - 120GPM for 6)​

Should I consider having 2 of the 6 returns placed at the lower end of the pool’s wall to help improve circulation and diffusion at the bottom of the pool? (see question #2)

No​

Would this not be beneficial for water diffusion and circulation as well as moving debris that may make it to the pool's floor? What would be a better use of the 2 extra returns?​

Autofill is nice to have but problematic.

Yes! I just don't know if the pros outweigh the cons. It is my understanding that their fail rate is concerning.​

Should I consider increasing the 12” waterfalls to 24” ($195 increase for each)

What is the difference in GPM requirements, and how will it affect your pump and plumbing?​

Thank you. However, after further consideration, I think I may just keep the 12" waterfalls.​

​

​

Riddle Me This: What question can you never answer yes to truthfully?

 

[Bperry]

PJT: Thank you for taking the time to read my post and respond.


You and Kimkats share the same thought. Here was our reasoning: We went with a 3.5" shallow end because we have a six year old. We want our kids to be able to enjoy the pool from day one. I am certainly open to continued feedback. would you still recommend a 4" shallow end? Also, thank you for the overflow drain photo. I picture is indeed worth a thousand words.

Riddle Me This: What question can you never answer yes to truthfully?

The kids will be fine in any water depth. They swim, float on stuff, jump in from the sides, etc.

 

[Riddle Me This]

The kids will be fine in any water depth. They swim, float on stuff, jump in from the sides, etc.

Thank you Bperry:

My concern: Currently 4' will be at the top of my 6 year old's head, which will temporarily restrict how the pool can be enjoyed by my youngest. As Kimkats stated: I know that at my height 5'5" I do not like 5' of water. It hits me right below my mouth. It is not fun to stand in. I imagine that's how my 6 year old would experience the pool at 4' for quite some time.


Riddle Me This: What question can you never answer yes to truthfully?

 

[Bperry]

Thank you Bperry:

My concern: Currently 4' will be at the top of my 6 year old's head, which will temporarily restrict how the pool can be enjoyed by my youngest. As Kimkats stated: I know that at my height 5'5" I do not like 5' of water. It hits me right below my mouth. It is not fun to stand in. I imagine that's how my 6 year old would experience the pool at 4' for quite some time.

Kids just don’t walk around on the bottom of the pool. The human body floats (for the most part), the kids bounce up and down a lot, then they grow. Once they grow enough, then they’ll hunker down under the water to stay warm/cool depending on the weather. Of course you can do whatever you want but your 6yo won’t notice any difference either way. My kids swam in water that was over their heads when they were 5-6 and I see the same thing a lot. You can’t leave them in there by themselves anyway.

 

[pjt]

We went with a 3.5" shallow end because we have a six year old. We want our kids to be able to enjoy the pool from day one. I am certainly open to continued feedback. would you still recommend a 4" shallow end?

will temporarily restrict how the pool can be enjoyed

"Temporarily" is the key word. Your pool will literally be set in stone. Get a 4' shallow end.

Builder is including ozone as a no cost addition.

Nothing your PB does is "no cost". Delete it and ask for a credit or something useful.

Auto fill Model?
Hayward WL010 Water Level Control Kit: If I removed auto fill, builder states they will still provide an overflow at no additional cost.

Autofill is nice to have but problematic.
Yes! I just don't know if the pros outweigh the cons. It is my understanding that their fail rate is concerning.

You can also add a fill line as part of your irrigation system and control it as a sprinkler zone. It's simple, inexpensive, reliable, easy to service, and gives you complete control.

Will you want to run the waterfalls and spa jets simultaneously?
Not necessarily.

If you're willing to accept not using your water features simultaneously with your spa, you can delete the water feature pump and use your main pump to operate your water features.

 

[ajw22]

3 returns are sufficient.

The 6 returns are standard for the builder.​

Where will the 6 returns be placed?

I was thinking 4 on the top aimed properly to create a vortex so they work in cohesion with the 2 skimmers.​

The other 2 I was thinking either bottom wall for water diffusion and circulation at the lower end of the pool or perhaps 1 at the stairs and 1 at the deep end bench​

Show us a diagram where returns, skimmer, and lights will be placed.

3 LED Lights: What models?

Hayward CrystaLogic 160 1.5-inch LED Light​

With the CrystalLogic 160, you get 10 fixed colors and 7 color-changing shows, versus the Networked ColorLoguc, which gives 101 colors and 11 color-changing shows.

Where will the lights be placed?

one by the deep end bench, directed away from the house, one in the middle of the pool directed away from the house, one between the stairs and the spa pointing towards the deep end.​

No light in the spa?

2 Sheer Descent Waterfall 12” What model?

I believe they will be Hayward sheer 500​

What GPM does the Installation Manual say is needed for the desired throw?

1 gallon per minute per inch of width (24GPM for both)​

​

How are returns different than jets?

My apologies. My understanding is there will be 6 allocated for therapeutic jets and 2 returns for returning filtered and disinfected water back into the system.​

What GPM flow do you expect from the spa jets?

15 - 20GPM.​

Standard pipe size for builder is 2.5", I have requested 3" for the spa plumbing. I am not sure if the builder will accommodate, and if so at what cost?​

6 jets at 15-20 GPM will require 90-120 GPM in flow.

The 2.7 HP pump may get to 90 GPM through the filter and heater if the filter is clean.

You want 3" suction from the spa and at least 2.5" return to the spa.

Consider a dedicated spa pump like this setup if you want strong spa jets:

Ozone unnecessary in an outdoor pool.

Builder is including ozone as a no cost addition.​

Delete it. Just adds unnecessary complexity to the pool.

Auto fill Model?

Hayward WL010 Water Level Control Kit: If I removed auto fill, builder states they will still provide an overflow at no additional cost.​

Have a manual fill line installed that you can automate the valving of later.

Omni controller and actuators OmniPL?

Yes OmniPL​

Good.

Dome up 12 months out of the year?

Screened enclosure. Yes during football season we will open the roof so God can watch his favorite team play. JK​

A screened enclosure is different than a dome. The pool will still get outdoor sun.

Questions
With the 1.1 HP single speed pump for assigned to the two waterfalls only, would it make sense to increase the pump to 1.85hp VSP ($800 increase) and tie the pump to both the waterfalls and the 6 Jets in the Spa?
Will you want to run the waterfalls and spa jets simultaneously?

Not necessarily.​

As discussed above, your spa jets need around 120 GPM of flow. You want a 2.7 HP VS pump. Examine the pump curves for the pumps you are considering.

What are the flow rate requirements for the waterfalls and spa jets?

Waterfalls: 1 gallon per minute per inch of width (24GPM for both)​

Spa Jets: 10-20 gallons per minute (60GPM - 120GPM for 6)​

Discussed above.

Should I consider having 2 of the 6 returns placed at the lower end of the pool’s wall to help improve circulation and diffusion at the bottom of the pool? (see question #2)

No​

Would this not be beneficial for water diffusion and circulation as well as moving debris that may make it to the pool's floor? What would be a better use of the 2 extra returns?​

Show a diagram of return, skimmer, and light locations.

Autofill is nice to have but problematic.

Yes! I just don't know if the pros outweigh the cons. It is my understanding that their fail rate is concerning.​

Discussed above.

Should I consider increasing the 12” waterfalls to 24” ($195 increase for each)

What is the difference in GPM requirements, and how will it affect your pump and plumbing?​

Thank you. However, after further consideration, I think I may just keep the 12" waterfalls.​

Good.

​

​

Riddle Me This: What question can you never answer yes to truthfully?

“Are you asleep?”

 

[Riddle Me This]

You can also add a fill line as part of your irrigation system and control it as a sprinkler zone. It's simple, inexpensive, reliable, easy to service, and gives you complete control.

The fill line is an awesome idea. Unfortunately, my municipality does not allow for irrigated water to be used to fill pools. However, I will certainly try to incorporate some form of a fill line into the pool's construction.

Nothing your PB does is "no cost". Delete it and ask for a credit or something useful.

Thank you! I will explore my options.

If you're willing to accept not using your water features simultaneously with your spa, you can delete the water feature pump and use your main pump to operate your water features.

That would provide some savings to be used in other places. Are there any other negatives to consider with this options?

Riddle Me This: What disappears as soon as you say its name?

 

[Riddle Me This]

Show us a diagram where returns, skimmer, and lights will be placed.

I requested the schematics, but the pool builder would like a signed contract before releasing. I am trying to get as much input from the TFP community before locking in.

No light in the spa?

Yes 3 lights in the pool and 1 in the spa.

6 jets at 15-20 GPM will require 90-120 GPM in flow.

I was considering getting the Hayward Tristar VS 900 1.85HP as a replacement for the 1.1 single speed. I thought maybe it could serve as the sole pump for the Spa. However, according to the video below, in a very controlled setting the pump maxed out will only get to 110GPM. I am thinking maybe I should just run everything from the 2.7 main pump, and save some money by deleting the water feature pump.

Have a manual fill line installed that you can automate the valving of later.

Great idea. I was initially thinking about asking the pool builder to run a PVC pipe under ground from the pool and have it emerge 3-6 inches above ground at my spigot (not connected). I can then connect an electronic or smart hose timer from the spigot to the PVC fitting to conveniently fill the pool. I was also thinking maybe the PVC pipe could terminate pool side at an eyeball fitting. Is this a horrible idea?

Smart Hose

With the CrystalLogic 160, you get 10 fixed colors and 7 color-changing shows, versus the Networked ColorLoguc, which gives 101 colors and 11 color-changing shows.

Thank you! I will discuss with my pool builder to see what the up charge will be.

Riddle Me This: What disappears as soon as you say its name?

 

[pjt]

my municipality does not allow for irrigated water to be used to fill pools.

You can branch off so it's separate from your irrigation system plumbing. The valve can be controlled from your irrigation controller.

That would provide some savings to be used in other places. Are there any other negatives to consider with this options?

Not really. It saves money and increases the simplicity of your system. You'll use your water features less than you think.

 

[Riddle Me This]

You can branch off so it's separate from your irrigation system plumbing. The valve can be controlled from your irrigation controller.

Can you provide a little more details? How do I branch off so the line is separate from the irrigation system's plumbing? If for whatever reason I am unable to implement your suggestion what do you think of these two alternative ideas?

Have a manual fill line installed that you can automate the valving of later

or

I was initially thinking about asking the pool builder to run a PVC pipe under ground from the pool and have it emerge 3-6 inches above ground at my spigot (not connected). I can then connect an electronic or smart hose timer from the spigot to the PVC fitting to conveniently fill the pool. I was also thinking maybe the PVC pipe could terminate pool side at an eyeball fitting.

Riddle Me This: What disappears as soon as you say its name?

 

[ajw22]

You need to have a Back Flow Preventer - Further Reading on the autofill line.

 

[pjt]

Can you provide a little more details? How do I branch off so the line is separate from the irrigation system's plumbing?

Any plumber or irrigation specialist could perform the work. In my area, the water pipe from the meter gets split in two, with one branch supplying the house and the other supplying the irrigation system. Branch off one of those lines to create your pool fill. You'll need a PVB or other code compliant backflow preventer on your fill line.

If for whatever reason I am unable to implement your suggestion what do you think of these two alternative ideas?

Any of these solutions work. Decide what's best for you.

 

[Riddle Me This]

Ajw22:

Before I make a decision on the second pump, I was hoping you could chime in.

You want 3" suction from the spa and at least 2.5" return to the spa.

My builder has committed to 3" plumbing to the spa

The 2.7 HP pump may get to 90 GPM through the filter and heater if the filter is clean.

Consider a dedicated spa pump like this setup if you want strong spa jets:

I was considering getting the Hayward Tristar VS 900 1.85HP as a replacement for the 1.1 single speed. I thought maybe it could serve as the sole pump for the Spa. However, according to the video below, in a very controlled setting the pump maxed out will only get to 110GPM. I am thinking maybe I should just run everything from the 2.7 main pump, and save some money by deleting the water feature pump.

However, if I run the Hayward Tristar VS 900 1.85HP as shown in your diagram (separating the spa's jets from the spa's returns, with 2 sets of suction drains, suction the spa jets to the 1.85 pump unimpeded by the filter and heater, the spa's return filtered and heated through the pool's main pump), given the test performed in the below video, what is your opinion on this setup and equipment vs. just running everything through the 2.7 main pump and deleting the second pump? It should be noted the test was performed on a single 2" suction line, 150sqft filter and 2" return line, and as stated I will have 3" throughout and with no heater and no filter as you suggested.

Riddle Me This: What disappears as soon as you say its name?

 

[kimkats]

we have a six year old. And, while we know kids grow extremely fast, we want our kids to be able to enjoy the pool from day one.

Get them some swimmies and floats to play on and they will enjoy it the first time you throw them in the water. Build for what your child will be NOT what they are now. The will be will last a lot longer than the now.

Riddle Me This: What disappears as soon as you say its name?

silence