Meter is on the house but the service is underground.
I mean, the next road over has overhead lines but our neighborhood is all underground. I would say closest is probably 150-200 feet away
A slight "shock"
- Thread starter TN94z
- Start date
Meter is on the house but the service is underground.
I mean, the next road over has overhead lines but our neighborhood is all underground. I would say closest is probably 150-200 feet away
It sounds like pulling the meter will do nothing more than opening the main (breaker). Did you ever test the frequency (hertz)?
Haven't had a chance yet. I was going to stop yesterday and get some wire but there was a wreck that I sat in for almost an hour only to get diverted 45 minutes to a back way home, so I didn't get a chance to get it. Planning on it today.
Pulling the meter is essential the same as opening the main breaker; which I know you've already done a couple of times. I don't want to see you waste your time either. The grounded conductor (neutral) will still be connected to the utilities. With the meter removed, I would disconnect the grounded conductor (neutral) and measure voltage between house and utility.
Fer sure. I threw a toaster in the Atlantic Ocean once and no one felt a shock farther away then a foot or so, lol... Same as a wire, farther away from the input the lower the voltage will drop.
So they pulled the meter and we still felt it. Then he pulled the bayonet fuse disconnecting the primary from the secondary and still felt it.
- Jul 21, 2013
- 65,173
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
That says the underground feed or a neighboring property is leaking voltage to ground.
It doesn't make a difference to the bonding problem. If the pool and deck are bonded they can have voltage on them and it will not shock because everything should be at the same potential. The issue is getting a good bond between everything.
Correct but I’m curious where it is coming from. I’m going to have my old phone line completely disconnected. We don’t have service on it anymore but it’s still connected because I get dial tone.
There are only three ways that the voltage can be exactly the same everywhere.
1) If the bonding grid and everything connected to the bonding grid is superconductive. That's not going to happen.
2) If the bonding grid and everything connected to the bonding grid is electrically isolated from the rest of the world. That's also not going to happen.
3) Locate the voltage source and turn it off so that there is no voltage or current leaking into the ground.
For an example of an electrically isolated system, if you test the voltage at the house main breaker and get 240 volts, you should get 240 volts at the pump switch line terminals when the pump is off. The line is completely equalized because there is no current flowing.
However, once you turn the pump on and the current begins to flow, the voltage will drop a few volts depending on the current and the resistance of the wire. So, you might have 240 volts at the breaker, but 230 volts at the pump.
The same thing is happening with the pool. You have an energized conductor somewhere leaking current such that it's flowing through the entire pool area.
There is current flowing through every possible pathway.
The amount of current flowing through every possible parallel path depends on the voltage, current and resistance of every parallel path.
Some current is flowing through the water, some is flowing through the bonding grid, some is going through the earth, some is going through the ground wires back to the neutral in the main panel.
So, you have a place where current is entering and exiting the pool area.
No two spots will be at the exact same potential. So, touching two different spots will always create a flow of current through your body.
Whether or not bonding can equalize the voltage sufficiently to reduce the current below a perceptible level depends on the quality of the bonding grid, the voltage of the energized conductor and the amount of current flowing through the entire area.
As Mike demonstrated by throwing a live conductor in the pool, about 10 amps was leaving the energized conductor and about 6 amps were traveling to the house neutral by way of the bonding grid to the ground wires to the neutral.
The rest of the 4 amps of current were traveling through the earth to the grounded utility neutral.
If there was another pool in the path of that 4 amps of current, the current would flow through and around the pool on its way to the grounded utility neutral.
As that 4 amps entered and exited the pool area, it would travel through every available conductive path.
There would be a voltage difference between the entry point and exit point depending on the entry and exit voltage, current and resistance.
1) If the bonding grid and everything connected to the bonding grid is superconductive. That's not going to happen.
2) If the bonding grid and everything connected to the bonding grid is electrically isolated from the rest of the world. That's also not going to happen.
3) Locate the voltage source and turn it off so that there is no voltage or current leaking into the ground.
For an example of an electrically isolated system, if you test the voltage at the house main breaker and get 240 volts, you should get 240 volts at the pump switch line terminals when the pump is off. The line is completely equalized because there is no current flowing.
However, once you turn the pump on and the current begins to flow, the voltage will drop a few volts depending on the current and the resistance of the wire. So, you might have 240 volts at the breaker, but 230 volts at the pump.
The same thing is happening with the pool. You have an energized conductor somewhere leaking current such that it's flowing through the entire pool area.
There is current flowing through every possible pathway.
The amount of current flowing through every possible parallel path depends on the voltage, current and resistance of every parallel path.
Some current is flowing through the water, some is flowing through the bonding grid, some is going through the earth, some is going through the ground wires back to the neutral in the main panel.
So, you have a place where current is entering and exiting the pool area.
No two spots will be at the exact same potential. So, touching two different spots will always create a flow of current through your body.
Whether or not bonding can equalize the voltage sufficiently to reduce the current below a perceptible level depends on the quality of the bonding grid, the voltage of the energized conductor and the amount of current flowing through the entire area.
As Mike demonstrated by throwing a live conductor in the pool, about 10 amps was leaving the energized conductor and about 6 amps were traveling to the house neutral by way of the bonding grid to the ground wires to the neutral.
The rest of the 4 amps of current were traveling through the earth to the grounded utility neutral.
If there was another pool in the path of that 4 amps of current, the current would flow through and around the pool on its way to the grounded utility neutral.
As that 4 amps entered and exited the pool area, it would travel through every available conductive path.
There would be a voltage difference between the entry point and exit point depending on the entry and exit voltage, current and resistance.
Last edited:
There are three current carrying conductors coming into the house panel.
Two hot wires (120 volts) and a neutral. The neutral carries any unbalanced current.
For example, if there is 35 amps on one hot wire and 40 amps on the other hot wire, the neutral will carry the 5 amp difference.
The neutral and the ground are connected to together in the panel.
If the neutral going back to the utility is damaged, the current can travel through the ground wire into the ground and back to the utility neutral through the ground.
If your neighbor has a bad neutral going to the utility, they could possibly be causing the current flowing through the pool area.
At this point, we just don't know what the source of the current is. We don't know the distance, where it's going to, the voltage or the current.
Hopefully, the new bonding will work, but it might not be 100% effective in reducing the current below perceptible levels.
Two hot wires (120 volts) and a neutral. The neutral carries any unbalanced current.
For example, if there is 35 amps on one hot wire and 40 amps on the other hot wire, the neutral will carry the 5 amp difference.
The neutral and the ground are connected to together in the panel.
If the neutral going back to the utility is damaged, the current can travel through the ground wire into the ground and back to the utility neutral through the ground.
If your neighbor has a bad neutral going to the utility, they could possibly be causing the current flowing through the pool area.
At this point, we just don't know what the source of the current is. We don't know the distance, where it's going to, the voltage or the current.
Hopefully, the new bonding will work, but it might not be 100% effective in reducing the current below perceptible levels.
But having said that, when I perform the tests mentioned previously at 10 or so different points around the pool shouldn’t it begin to point me in the direction of the leak? Higher voltage readings the closer to the leak I get?
So I’m unsure if you’re saying that the deck needs to be torn up or not? That’s another thing that has prolonged the situation. I get on here one day and it seems everyone is in agreement the pad needs to be torn up and bonding redone. Then the next day it seems the opinion has swayed to more testing and finding the cause. So then I go test. I’m so confused now, I don’t know what the next step is..
The main problem is that we don't know what the source of the current is.
The more current that is flowing through the ground, the better the bonding grid that's needed to mitigate the voltage difference.
A better grid might work, but it might not.
Ideally, the best option is to locate the voltage source and rectify the problem at the source.
Have you done all of the suggested tests including the frequency tests?
The more current that is flowing through the ground, the better the bonding grid that's needed to mitigate the voltage difference.
A better grid might work, but it might not.
Ideally, the best option is to locate the voltage source and rectify the problem at the source.
Have you done all of the suggested tests including the frequency tests?
- Jul 21, 2013
- 65,173
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Not necessarily. As James explained electric current can take circuitous routes. And what you are feeling is the voltage difference. So if the pool is at 25V and the deck is at 23V you will feel a 2V shock. Now that is good because a small voltage differential will not harm you.
I mentioned the EMF meter a few posts ago. It can sense voltage being radiated from power sources. It can find the location of power lines in walls. It is a long shot but walking around with the EMF meter may let you sense voltage in an area where there should be little to none. It may point you in the direction of the power leak in your neighborhood. The meter makes the invisible be visible.
Got some wire today to perform all tests mentioned. Will work on it as time and weather permits and will
I'm sorry I wasnt specific when I said pull the meter. You also disconnect the nuetral lug and ground lug temporarily so you isolate the house. Pulling the meter is a slang term. when you do this test it at least tells you it's from the meter back or meter down. If you have underground service all your neighbors probably do too. Current can be coming in from all over underground. I did not know you had underground service and probably utilities too. Cable and phone can carry stray voltages most use a central shared ground and are on grid with neighbors. If I was on site and had time to dig into this I could swing one way or another. But guessing with your wallet on a forum I cant do. Your gonna have to make an educated decision and hope it works out. I will tell you that if you do rip the deck out I would be insane with the effort to bond correctly and thoroughly
Yes, unfortunately, too deep into electrical is over my head. So I just assumed telling the electric company what is going on and telling them to pull the meter, they would know what to do. I am going to have the phone service completely disconnected as we do not have home phones anymore. There is no cable in my area. Phone and electrical is it. Ripping the deck up is going to be done for some cosmetic reasons as well, so not all is lost in doing that. But absolutely for sure, it will be thoroughly and correctly bonded when that happens. I’m going to take off work and make sure of that. Mike Holt has asked me to take pictures of the process that he is going to potentially use for future reference with anyone that contacts him about the same issue.
This is a quote from my buddy that works for the power company when talking to him today about potential leakage from my underground service:
“Normally if the jacket is bad on the service it would have blown out already. It’s aluminum so it it’s got a pin hole in it it will corrode in a matter of days and blow into causing major issues in side tour house. No 220, etc. As long as you’ve been having trouble, I can’t see it lasting that long If it’s the service wire? But you never know”
- Jul 21, 2013
- 65,173
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
You can buy EMF meters on Amazon. This is the one I have...
Cornet ED88T Plus Tri Mode Meter Latest Version of The ED88T. EMF/RF Detector/Acoustic and Low Frequency Gaussmeter and Electric Field Meter with Sound Signature and Datalogger - - Amazon.com
Cornet ED88T Plus Tri Mode Meter Latest Version of The ED88T. EMF/RF Detector/Acoustic and Low Frequency Gaussmeter and Electric Field Meter with Sound Signature and Datalogger - - Amazon.com
www.amazon.com
- Dec 17, 2017
- 667
- Pool Size
- 36000
- Surface
- Fiberglass
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Astral Viron eQuilibrium EQ45
The EMF meter will not be of any use as its measuring bandwidth starts at 100MHz which is way higher than your normal powerline frequencies (60Hz) in the US.
- Jul 21, 2013
- 65,173
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
It works fine for picking up power line EMF. It is a multi function device and the 100Mhz-8Ghz is the spec for for the RF receiver.
CORNET Microsystem Inc., ED-88Plus Electrosmog meter is a Tri-mode device for quick measurement of both High frequency (RF) Electromagnetic wave field strength/power density level, Low frequency (LF)
Magnetic field level(Gauss, Tesla), and Low frequency (ELF) Electric Field(V/m) for living environments.
It has RF bandwidth of 100MHz to 8GHz with high sensitivity (0.5uw/m2 to 1.8w/m2), LF bandwidth of 50Hz to 10KHz (or 50Hz to 1KHz) with sensitivity of 0.1uT to 60uT(1mG-600mG) or 0.01uT to 1uT(0.1mG to 10mG), and E-field bandwidth of 50Hz-50KHz with sensitivity of 10v/m to 1000v/m. The RF Frequency display function (100MHz- 2.7GHz) can detect very short burst of digital RF down to 100usec.
See https://radmeters.com/downloads/cornet/Cornet_ED88TPlusUserManualQeng-V2.pdf
Last edited:
There you go, EMF is a completely different can or worms then what the OP is into.