After all of my research and reading, I'm not sure that I can agree with that. Concrete is a really good conductor of electricity and if there is stray voltage in the area around a pool, the concrete would most definitely need to be bonded to the rest of the system considering the fact that you can be standing on the concrete and touching the water at the same time. Unless I have just totally misunderstood the research I have done the last couple of years on this subject...
A slight "shock"
- Thread starter TN94z
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After all of my research and reading, I'm not sure that I can agree with that. Concrete is a really good conductor of electricity and if there is stray voltage in the area around a pool, the concrete would most definitely need to be bonded to the rest of the system considering the fact that you can be standing on the concrete and touching the water at the same time. Unless I have just totally misunderstood the research I have done the last couple of years on this subject...
I hear sammy and I agree on many points. The bond in the concrete is needed because theres rebar in it. Take in case a deck I'm doing right now. No rebar just fiber mesh in it. We have a single loop in 4 spots about 18" out and its code and works well...been there done that before. When you took the bond wire and dropped it in the pool you equalized the pool to the grid. If you still feel the shock do it again but dry with rubber shoes on. If you feel the shock the deck replacement wont fix it. If the test is wet standing on the deck you may have a differential because of it. Theres a few tests that can prove you right or wrong before going further with the deck. I dont remember if you have any reinforcing wire now but I didnt think you do.
The concrete does need to be bonded regardless of whether it has rebar or not because a 3ft bonding grid is required by code which will bond the concrete near the pool. Regardless of code, bonding the concrete is extremely important as wet concrete is a conductor and numerous members here have experienced shocks from touching concrete decking without rebar
If you have no metal in the concrete deck a single loop attached in four equal points is the normal. Many decks dont use rebar anymore fiber mesh is superior. With a paver deck a single loop is still the required code and it's under the sub base no less
In my opinion, all concrete decks need a rebar or steel mesh grid tied to the bonding grid.
That's news to me but i do understand the wet thing. But to get a shock from wet cement you have to touch something on "another" bond. So i understand once you start a bond circuit then you must for sure have everything now on it. My personal pool has no bond in the cement as it is fiber mesh and no shock issues. I can not remember if the steel walls had anything as per bonding to them. Makes one wonder if the "codes" have created a monster as i am willing to bet there are thousands of non bonds out there on more items then just pools.
BUT, thats not the issue here now.
As i said a few post above i can not remember all the post on this subject but maybe the OP can correct me here,,, did you mention you touched something and them at the same time touch something else and this is where you get your shock.. I at that time asked you to "wire" those 2 points together, i think you said you did and still get the shock.. hummmm, thats not possible as i see it from where i sit ? The more "bonds" one thinks he has created the more likely one is going to separate and cause these shock issues . It is not possible to get a shock when touching the same potential in 2 different places, if you do the bond is broken.
BUT, thats not the issue here now.
As i said a few post above i can not remember all the post on this subject but maybe the OP can correct me here,,, did you mention you touched something and them at the same time touch something else and this is where you get your shock.. I at that time asked you to "wire" those 2 points together, i think you said you did and still get the shock.. hummmm, thats not possible as i see it from where i sit ? The more "bonds" one thinks he has created the more likely one is going to separate and cause these shock issues . It is not possible to get a shock when touching the same potential in 2 different places, if you do the bond is broken.
I have had about enough weather break to to do the tests that Mike suggested. It has seriously rained here more than it has in years. Ridiculous. The problem comes in the fact that I have to drain water off of my cover to get it pulled back to perform the tests. Add that with the fact that when I talked with Mike, he told me the only test I needed to do for him to determine the issue, so that what I did. As soon as I get a decent weekend, I will run your tests as well. I'm starting to feel like we live in Seattle...
As a matter of fact, I will try and do your tests in the next couple of days. It is actually sunny today, but I think it is supposed to start raining again tomorrow. Just printed out all of your test suggestions. I'll see if I can round up 50' of wire today.
Only feel the shock with bare feet on wet concrete. Do not feel anything with shoes on. What tests? We have ran quite a few minus the ones I still need to run for JamesW.
We have no metal in the deck and there was a single wire attached as per their normal install. Now, I cannot say if that wire has been broken or the wire was pushed up next to wall when the leveling of the dirt took place.
The shock comes in when you are barefoot, on the wet concrete and you reach in and touch the pool. This is the only time it is felt. In the water, you feel nothing. Reaching and grabbing the ladder to get out of the water, you feel nothing.
Trust me, if this can be resolved without tearing up the deck, I am ALLLLL for it. I am trying to build a shop too and that money would pay for half my shop. After explaining all of this to Mike and doing the test he wanted, he stated the only way to resolve this is tear the deck up and bond it correctly with wire mesh in the concrete
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before they leveled the dirt how many spots was the bond wire tied into the pool? do you know if in fact the ladder was bonded at the cups? have you tried a wire into the pool in one hand basically tieing you to the water and then reaching in with the other hand to see if you feel it?
If I remember you had somebody or were planning on somebody pulling your meter and basically shutting off the whole house to see if there was underground stray voltage. did you ever do this and what were results if so
If I remember you had somebody or were planning on somebody pulling your meter and basically shutting off the whole house to see if there was underground stray voltage. did you ever do this and what were results if so
I cannot remember that for sure. I do know that it was connected to the pool walls at various points, then to the ladder cups, and from there the diving board legs, and then out to the pump. That is actually one test that I have not tried. But that would be simple enough. My son is off today. He is my test dummy because he feels it more than anyone. I can rarely, if ever, feel it. I will try that one today. The guy came over but didn't pull the meter. But we have shut the main off to the house and still felt it. I can have someone come pull the meter if that would be better than shutting the main off.
Forgive me if my memory fades on this with some stuff. We have done SO much with this issue over the time of this thread, sometimes I cannot remember what we have and have not done.
Can you elaborate on this?
You should really be using a voltmeter knowing there's a problem. There's no telling what the voltage gradient could be next time you" test".
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Exclusively use a voltmeter on certain tests. Mike had me to duplicate the exact scenario where my son felt the shock. I attached a wire to the pump, running to a piece of metal, that I would put into and out of the water as my son was testing for the shock. He stated that he did not feel it with the metal in the water but it was inconsistent. I think he had some mind games going on knowing that I had the metal. I have ordered a skimmer bonding kit that I am going to install and not tell him and have him do the same check for a few days and see what he finds. After telling Mike that I know for a fact there is no wire mesh in the concrete and only the single wire running around, he stated that if I had told him that in the beginning, then we wouldn't have had to even do this test.
Having said this, at one point in time, I had a big piece of copper attached to the bonding grid that stayed in the pool and they could still feel the shock. This was as some point last year.
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Just because two things are bonded together doesn't mean that they are at the exact same potential everywhere.
The voltage can vary based on the resistance, voltage and current.
See the below video starting at 16:45 to see how the voltage in water can vary.
Since all of the water is connected, you might think that it's all at the exact same potential, but it's not.
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That's true it can vary along the bond. But the basic idea is to avoid the shock feeling and this is a discharge. Think of it as people who work on electronics. They wear a ground strap around their wrist and are bonded to their parts to avoid sending static. It's the same idea with a bonded pool. What bothers me is that the test for house power wasnt done. Killing the main still leaves the nuetral connected to the pole thru the panel. He may have underground stray voltage. And this is a hard one if in fact he cannot feel it himself and his son can. Can be mind over matter into play also. Wet conduits and a simple nick in a wire can cause this issue and even worse
I did have the electric company come out and check their equipment and was told there were no issues there. It's not just my son. My wife and my daughter can feel it too. I just cannot. I will get someone out to pull the meter while I have someone there to see if they feel it afterwards. It is very hard for me to get something like this scheduled. My wife and son work weekends and my son works all of the time. It would be much easier if I could feel it myself, but I cannot...at least not consistently enough to be checking.
So it's obvious that there is stray voltage coming from somewhere, right. But my question is, even if I found the source of the stray voltage, that does not resolve the issue that my bonding grid is not correct and will still need to be fixed. Am I wrong in that thinking?
Power company is coming out today at 3:30 to pull my meter. I am taking off of work early and having my son come straight home from school. I will update what we find.
I will also get my meter out and compare the voltage levels and see if there is a difference before and after meter pull. So if there is ANYTHING else I need to check while the meter is off, let me know
I will also get my meter out and compare the voltage levels and see if there is a difference before and after meter pull. So if there is ANYTHING else I need to check while the meter is off, let me know
Can you post any photos of your electric service? Pulling the meter won't isolate the grounded conductor.
- Jul 21, 2013
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I don't want to send you on another wild goose chase but are there overhead power lines anywhere near your property? My son is looking at buying a house near some overhead power lines and the house inspector suggested he investigate the implications of that. That got me to buy an EMF meter...
that I have been using to measure electromagnetic fields with. I was surprised to find some EMF hot spots in and around my house.
Standing under most of the overhead power lines in my neighborhood I measure around 6 Volts/meter of electric field strength. However in one segment between two power poles I found 50 - 100 volts/meter standing under the power line. That line looks like it has visible insulation breaks and splices that are leaking EMF and I am reporting it to the power company.
I have not seen where EMF causes shocks like you are getting. So this may be totally irrrrelevent to your problem. But at this point I would be open to exploring any odd ball cause. If you want to explore this more I can point you to resources to learn more.
Cornet ED88T Plus Tri Mode Meter Latest Version of The ED88T. EMF/RF Detector/Acoustic and Low Frequency Gaussmeter and Electric Field Meter with Sound Signature and Datalogger - - Amazon.com
Cornet ED88T Plus Tri Mode Meter Latest Version of The ED88T. EMF/RF Detector/Acoustic and Low Frequency Gaussmeter and Electric Field Meter with Sound Signature and Datalogger - - Amazon.com
www.amazon.com
that I have been using to measure electromagnetic fields with. I was surprised to find some EMF hot spots in and around my house.
Standing under most of the overhead power lines in my neighborhood I measure around 6 Volts/meter of electric field strength. However in one segment between two power poles I found 50 - 100 volts/meter standing under the power line. That line looks like it has visible insulation breaks and splices that are leaking EMF and I am reporting it to the power company.
I have not seen where EMF causes shocks like you are getting. So this may be totally irrrrelevent to your problem. But at this point I would be open to exploring any odd ball cause. If you want to explore this more I can point you to resources to learn more.