Right. I understand that. I just wanted to make sure this wasn’t an issue. Thanks
A slight "shock"
- Thread starter TN94z
- Start date
Ok, so the new plan is to bust out around 24" of concrete from the pool wall out, lay the wire mesh and rebar, run a new bond wire that will bond to the pool walls, ladder cups, diving board legs, new wire mesh, rebar, etc...and then pour new concrete and install an expansion joint as well. We are also removing the brick coping because it is terrible and we don't like it and having an aluminum coping installed.
Thoughts? This is going to be pricey BUT it needs to be done for the safety of the family. While this is going on, I'm going to get my friend at the power company to just come out and verify whether or not they have voltage leaking anywhere. Also, one thing I haven't mentioned is I had an electrician come out and we re-worked some of the electrical stuff on the pool equipment that he didn't like and while he was there, we ran a new, twice the size ground wire to my house main panel and added a second ground rod to it as well. He stated that the ground wire that was originally installed on the house was half the size that it should be.
Thoughts? This is going to be pricey BUT it needs to be done for the safety of the family. While this is going on, I'm going to get my friend at the power company to just come out and verify whether or not they have voltage leaking anywhere. Also, one thing I haven't mentioned is I had an electrician come out and we re-worked some of the electrical stuff on the pool equipment that he didn't like and while he was there, we ran a new, twice the size ground wire to my house main panel and added a second ground rod to it as well. He stated that the ground wire that was originally installed on the house was half the size that it should be.
Well, the guy that was going to bust up the concrete could not do it when he said he could. So I had another guy come over and cut me a trench all the way around the pool. I ran a #8 wire in the trench, connect it directly to each ladder leg and each diving board leg, and then ran it out and connected it to the existing wire that was coming out of the concrete which runs to the pump and then to a grounding rod (that I just found). Still felt the shock afterwards. I then proceeded to kill the breaker in the pool panel and removed the pool light connection in the junction box to take it out of the picture and my son still felt the shock.
So my question now is this....how do I know that if I bust up the concrete completely, lay the wire mesh and use rebar like was should have been done originally, that I won't feel the shock after that??? That is my big fear at this point since nothing seems to resolve the issue in any way. Is there some way to test now that would tell my 100% that redoing the concrete will resolve the issue? I'm willing to do whatever it takes at this point to get this behind me
So my question now is this....how do I know that if I bust up the concrete completely, lay the wire mesh and use rebar like was should have been done originally, that I won't feel the shock after that??? That is my big fear at this point since nothing seems to resolve the issue in any way. Is there some way to test now that would tell my 100% that redoing the concrete will resolve the issue? I'm willing to do whatever it takes at this point to get this behind me
- Jul 21, 2013
- 54,308
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Pull the main breaker in your main panel in the house to power down the entire house and see if you still feel the tingle.
- Jul 21, 2013
- 54,308
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Call your power company and report it. They may have a bad transformer leaking power to ground
- Jul 21, 2013
- 54,308
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
They aren't that close and I know there is stray voltage coming from somewhere, so I know that is a problem. But I believe the bigger issue is that the stray voltage has uncovered the fact that my bonding grid is trash and needs to be fixed.
One more question I have...my water is bonded via the ring that goes under the pump basket. With that in mind, I know I forgot to connect the SWG to the new bond wire that was put in place in the deck yesterday. Could the lack of the SWG being connected to the new bond wire be causing the issue even if the water is being bonded by another device?
- Jul 21, 2013
- 54,308
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
- Jul 21, 2013
- 54,308
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
That does not provide a water bond.
It should be connected to the bonding grid but it will only fix the problem if the power supply is creating the problem.
I have a fluke..I've never tested frequency though. How would I go about this?
Agreed. Am I wrong in thinking that if it's creating the voltage and not connected to the grid currently, that still shows a faulty grid?
Also, 2 more question in reference to redoing the concrete. I currently have a brick coping, if I changed that to aluminum, would that require a liner change?
And, what all is involved in adding a slide?
- Jul 21, 2013
- 54,308
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
I am not sure what you are thinking there.
I think the bonding grid is designed to equalize the potential when it is coming from one source. With the potential coming from external source(s) you could have different potentials at different places. The bonding grid may not be able to equalize it.
A single wire bonding grid is not the best type. There is a debate within the NEC if a wire mesh bonding grid should be required. Read ...
A Debate in the Deep End
Industry experts weigh the wire mesh grid vs. single-wire approach to suppressing stray voltage around pools
www.ecmweb.com
The article says:
But a single ground ring embedded in concrete within 30 in. of the pool water, it cautioned, may only provide reasonable neutral-to-earth voltage mitigation “where nearby distribution faults are not a concern.”
Knowing that your voltage is coming from outside the house it is a possible distribution fault.
The article also says:
As customer and electric utility neutral conductors carry more current and cases of high-impedance faults linked to compromised insulation on buried cable multiply, outdoor pools are among the environments growing more susceptible to perceptible neutral-to-earth and contact exposure voltage. It’s against that backdrop, along with the emergence of pools made from new materials, that the debate over the best methods of creating a safer pool environment using equipotential bonding techniques has played out in recent years.
“Stray voltage can come from house wiring or from electric utility distribution systems, and the incidence of exposures is increasing in part because more pools are made of pre-fabricated, non-concrete materials,” says Charles DeNardo, chief engineer with We Energies, a Milwaukee-based electric utility, and chair of an IEEE Working Group on Voltages at Publicly and Privately Accessible Locations. “The difference in voltage between the water and the earth will be less with concrete and rebar, and more with materials like plastic and other non-conductible materials.”
Users of improperly bonded pools are at risk of shock when they simultaneously contact two points in the vicinity of the pool that have different voltage levels, often the result of a fault that occurs on either the electric utility or the customer side of the meter. Douglas Dorr, senior project manager for the Electric Power Research Institute, who coordinated a study comparing pool bonding techniques, says the voltage levels can far exceed those of nuisance tingles.
“In a typical voltage drop you may get three or four volts if the bonding is not good,” he says. “But if you have a fault where the current is going through the return path and you get a voltage drop, that’s where the problem lies. That’s a safety issue that has to be addressed by getting everything around the pool to float at the same voltage potential.”
If you are going to redo the bonding around your pool you should look into using copper mesh bonding.
I don't know. Depends how your pool was constructed. Post some pics of your coping and liner interface and let's see what folks like @jimmythegreek say.
Money.
Testing frequency is like testing voltage. Just set to hz. Check your manual for specific instructions.
In my opinion, the single wire method is not sufficient. I would want a metal grid in the concrete.
Note that a bonding grid can never completely eliminate voltage gradients.
There will always be some voltage differential if there is current because of the resistance in the conductive materials.
Note: Do not connect the leads to the test source until the switch is in the correct position. The person in the video moves the switch while the leads are connected, which should never be done.
In my opinion, the single wire method is not sufficient. I would want a metal grid in the concrete.
Note that a bonding grid can never completely eliminate voltage gradients.
There will always be some voltage differential if there is current because of the resistance in the conductive materials.
Note: Do not connect the leads to the test source until the switch is in the correct position. The person in the video moves the switch while the leads are connected, which should never be done.
Last edited:
- Mar 24, 2014
- 2,455
- Pool Size
- 32000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool SJ-55
Last edited:
- Jul 21, 2013
- 54,308
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
- Mar 24, 2014
- 2,455
- Pool Size
- 32000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool SJ-55
- Jul 21, 2013
- 54,308
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Good catch. Connecting to a grounding rod is not correct. You don’t want to drain potential from a bonding grid, just equalize it across all conductors in the grid.
You also don’t want to pick up stray potential from the ground rod.
It should be disconnected.
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The premade copper bonding grid is expensive the material is around 1k for an average pool for just the grid. If there is rebar in the concrete and the bond wire is properly attached and all is wire tied well you essentially have a grid. There is still different opinions on the grid when using other materials like pavers. Some areas require a copper mesh grid or multiple rings lugged together. Others want just a single ring with the usual additional bonding locations. The bonding shouldn't connect to a ground rod here in the US but places like Canada require it to do so. I feel stray voltage can be picked up using a ground rod. Think of moist dirt a few feet down as a good conductor and issues with a neighbor or service equipment can pocarry stray voltages and cause havoc. The only time I have seen an issue remotely like this the electrician and service provider pulled the meter and removed the all paths back to the pole to isolate the house feed being the issue. I dont remember exactly what it was ultimately but it was from the neighboring property's electric service underground