Who here are the water hydraulics experts?

[mas985]

My guess is that your filter guage is bad. With panels on the second story roof and that amount of pipe, you should see a pretty large change in pressure when the solar first turns on and then settle to a value which is 4-8 PSI above the value with the panels off.

 

[Sabot]

Went ahead and installed the LG per John and Jason’s suggestion. It works, better control but (always a butt) there is not enough pressure when the solar is off. With the solar off, the max out to the flow indicator is 2. I need 3 to get enough chlorine to the pool to make a difference. To get to 3, I have to restrict the returns to two of the main drains, leaving the skimmer return alone. What are the side effects by restricting the flow back to the main drains a little?

I am going back to have the solar off line coming from the original feed right after the filter. This line is going to a meter valve thru the back flow device then into the “T”. I am going to leave the line coming from the solar on. This line also goes through a meter valve then the back flow device into the “T”.

I do have one issue, I have my two original feed lines right after my filter tapped and threaded. When I removed the original threaded nipple and replaced it with the plug for testing it now has a slow leak. I replaced the original threaded nipple wrapping as before with Teflon tape and it too has a slow leak. When I threaded the hole, I noticed a very small piece of PVC came out. Just enough for the water to push pass the Teflon tape. (No matter how much Teflon tape I put on it.) What are my options to seal up this small leak? I was thinking something along the lines of TFe plumber’s putty. http://www.doityourself.com/invt/u403485

 

[JasonLion]

That doesn't make any sense to me. There shouldn't be enough of a pressure drop across the solar diverter valve to make that much of a difference.

 

[Sabot]

Found some paste at Home Depot this morning and applied to the leaky thread. We where gone for the morning until just 30 minutes ago. I left the pump off so the paste could setup. (It said you can apply pressure right away but I figured I give it a few hours). The is no leak as of yet...

Once again, I tried various ways to increase the pressure on the non-solar side with no results. The only way to get the pressure up is to close the returns a bit. I don't want this for the long term solution.

Is there any thing I can install to increase the pressure on the non-solar side besides another pump?

 

[mas985]

Did you ever find out if the filter guage was bad? Still seems odd to me that you have such a large change in LQ flow rates but no change in filter PSI with solar on or off. Violates laws of physics. With such a large change at LQ, the filter pressure must be changing by quite a bit and it would be helpful to confirm that with a working filter guage.

 

[Sabot]

PB is coming out to replace this coming week.

 

[Sabot]

Do you recommend a booster pump? Wonder if it is possible to wire the pump does not run when the solar is on? What pump is recommended? I have all Pentairs so far.

When we where designing the pool, it was recommended that we have a booster due to our water bubblers and waterfalls. We decided not to get the pump which I am now wish we did. To get the water features to work with enough water pressure, I restrict the returns.

How does one plump a booster pump into an existing pool plumbing? This sounds like a project for the pro's. Does anyone have pictures of how a booster pump is plumbed?

 

[mas985]

Mike,

A booster pump would be a pretty expensive solution to this problem. If you need it for the water features then that's fine and perhaps you should do that. But I would hold off on doing anything until we can get a handle on what is going on. Once you have a decent measurement of filter pressure, there could be range of simple solutions. If your filter pressure is actually much higher than it reads now, then you may be able to use the pressure valve that you purchased. If your filter pressure for solar is abnormally high, then perhaps there is some issue with the solar plumbing. So there could be a range of simple fixes but it is best to get all of the information before making any decision.

Have you done any long term (5 days+) CL residual test with the solar on and with it off? Do you know for a fact, ignoring the HASA flow meter for now, that your CL levels are that much different with and without solar?

 

[Sabot]

I have not done such tests. Having not done such tests, I can't say for fact. What I have watched daily, is the spikes and declines. Now with the heat up, the solar has not been running of late. My FC has been dropping over the last 3 days since my solar has been off. I have the max flow going through the LQ while the solar has been off. (It reads 3 on the flow indicator) At this rate, I will need to add chlorine tonight to get the level back up to 3-5 ppm.

May 23: 3.03
May 24: 2.20
May 25: 1.76

As the flow test have shown, there is similar flows rates but the pressure seems differance. I don't quite understand if the flow rates are similar but the pressure is differant, would similar amounts of FC get to the pool?

 

[mas985]

As the flow test have shown, there is similar flows rates but the pressure seems differance. I don't quite understand if the flow rates are similar but the pressure is differant, would similar amounts of FC get to the pool?

This is what I am trying to figure out. Normally, if the actual flow rate measurements are nearly the same, then the FC should be the same. The LQ flow meter may not be that accurate to rely upon and there could be many reasons for that including installing it too close to fitting or other connection. Most flow meters like lots of tubing/pipe on both sides so the flow is not turbulent.

Even a with pressure change, the LQ flow rates should not actually change too much. It is about the square root of the pressure ratio. So if your pressure goes up by 40% with solar on, flow rates in the LQ should only increase by about 20%. This shouldn't be a big problem for the residual if you set the minimum FC for solar off. Then when solar is on, the chlorine level should only go up by about 20% which isn't a lot. If you normally have 3 ppm as your minimum, with solar, it should only go up to 3.6 ppm. Not a big deal but we need to confirm that with the filter pressure measurements and then decide what to do next. My belief is that over several days, you probably won't see a large swing in FC when solar is on or off but you need to monitor FC and solar settings to determine that.

 

[Sabot]

I test out some shorter runs on the flex tubing to see if that makes a differance in the morning when it's a bit cooler outside. I am out of ideas what to do. I have tested every possible solution. It will be interesting to see what the new gauge will show on the filter.

 

[Sabot]

PB came out and replaced the pressure gauge which was broken.

Solar off: 15psi
Solar on: 24psi

 

[mas985]

Well that makes sense now. Solar has a 60% pressure rise so the flow rate in LQ should go up by about 26% or from 3 ppm to 3.8 ppm. Still not too bad. Worth checking the long term CL level with solar on.

My concern now though is that your solar PSI rise is 9 PSI which probably means that the pump is forcing quite a bit of water through the panels. Do you have a solar bypass setup? If so, you could reduce the pressure rise for solar and reduce the flow rate changes for the LQ at the same time. Most panels don't require more than 60 GPM and a 2 HP pump will probably well exceed that. My guess is that you are putting over a 100 GPM through the panels. Panel requirements are usually below 60 GPM but that depends on how many parallel panels you have.

Another way to change the flow through the panels is to change the cam position in the solar valve so it does not close off the solar off position all the way. This will bypass some of the water and lower the pressure when solar is on and hopefully equalize the flow rate in the LQ better.

 

[Sabot]

Cool, I will talk to the solar man when he comes out to install my flow meter on the non-solar side. He will be doing some plumbing work for me. This seems to be a better way to reduce the pressure differance between solar on & off.

Any idea how to fix the problem of low pressure on the non-solar side? I like John's solution but at 2 or less on the flow indicator, that is not a working solution. I need to have max flow at 4 on the flow indicator with a working area in between 3-4. Right now, I have the return valves to two of my main drains restricted about a 1/4 closed to increase the pressure. I am concerned with this for what effects will restricting the returns have on my system to include solar?

 

[mas985]

So with the solar bypass, the primary goal should be to get this to work with the original setup so you don't need a second flow meter or valve.

I am still puzzled by your question about the non-solar side and the flow rate of 2. Why can't you open the LQ flow valve more to increase that flow rate to 3?

Right now, I have the return valves to two of my main drains restricted about a 1/4 closed to increase the pressure. I am concerned with this for what effects will restricting the returns have on my system to include solar?

Do you mean suction valves for your main drains? This will decrease pressure not increase it and overall do not think this is a good thing to do. Or did you mean return valves for your returns? Either way this may be causing some of the problems you are seeing and it reduces the pump efficiency (cost you more money). You really want all the valves open. No restriction on the return or suction sides of the plumbing.

There are too many other factors going on here and we need to simplify things so having the suction side restricted complicates things. Let's try this first:

Open all the valves on the return an suction side plumbing (let me know what the filter presssure is).
Adjust the solar valve for partial direction to solar (5-6 PSI rise max)
Adjust LQ flow valve for 3 when solar is off
Report LQ flow rate when solar is on but bypassed

I would be surprised to see it over 4 with solar on with this setup. Remember, there is no harm in having the FC level swing a bit as long as it is always above the minimum value.

 

[Sabot]

"I am still puzzled by your question about the non-solar side and the flow rate of 2. Why can't you open the LQ flow valve more to increase that flow rate to 3?" Answer: The valves are fully open with a flow rate of 2.

The suction is right before the pump. For the pressure side I have 1 tap right after the filter per the previous drawings and another tap right after the solar valve as per John's drawing. The below readings are at max flow with the solar off. (Let's work on the low pressure from the non-solar side for now) All valves are open on both the suction and return side.

Here are the recordings:
Using John's method: The flow is max'ed out at 1 on the flow indicator. (The middle of the ball right at the 1)
Using original method: The flow is max'ed out at 2.75 on the flow indicator. (The middle of the ball right right below the 3)

Flow Rates using a 1 gal jug:
Using original method: 3 min 6 sec
Using John's method: 12 min 52 sec

I also installed another flow indicator on the suction side between the LQ & the pump. The flow indicator was show the exact same flow rate of the flow indicator on the other side of the tank. (You stated it would, I figured I test it)

"Or did you mean return valves for your returns?" Yes, I ment these. The returns to the pool. I just started to test this, so this really has no impact what has been going on. These are now open.

Just came to me while testing the flow, while I had the meter valve open for testing John's method, I opened up the solar meter valve to see if there would be more flow. There was, it moved the ball from 1 to just over 2. I am thinking the solar valve is not seating 100% closed in any one direction. Possible? It's a Goldline Actuator: GVA-24. I have not researched how to make adjustments on this, anyone have a clue?

 

[JasonLion]

If I am following this correctly it makes no sense to me. With the solar off there should be essentially the same pressure, and thus the same flow, right after the filter and after the three way valve on the pool side. The three way valve can't possibly be losing that much pressure. Either the solar is on or the description is wrong or the valve is broken.

 

[mas985]

Jason is right. The solar three way valve should have very little head loss. So with the solar off, it shouldn't matter where the tap point is before or after the valve.

Just to be clear, the new tap point is on the pool side of the solar valve correct?

If so, then there must be something wrong with that valve or perhaps the tap point. The pressure should not drop that much by simply moving to the other side of the valve. Nor should the flow rate of the LQ.

There could be some blockage in the new tap point which is create some restriction. It might be worthwhile to check the insertion and lines to it.

But, one thing I would be interested in and it might make the whole new tap point moot is that with the solar partially bypassed (open the solar valve half way) which I think you need anyway, what is the flow rate with solar on and the old tap point.

 

[Sabot]

I have a total of 3 tap points for the LQ. The original point tap which is right after the filter but before the 3 way solar valve. A tap on the other two sides of the 3 way solar valve. (I.e. one on the pool side and one on the solar side) I have meter valves on all so I can test different setups.

I am researching how to micro adjust the solar valve to test out the by pass. I will swap feed lines to ensure the lines are clear of debris.