16 July 2024 Finishing Up my OB Pool

[setsailsoon]

Waiting......

We lost a couple days to weather so installation will continue tomorrow. Here's a few photos of pre-fab on site work:
Mid-Frame sections

Mid frame sections from below:


You can't really see it to0 well but the super gutter components are on the other side of end the end frame for the patio seen here:

 

[kimkats]

You are this // close!!! Yeah weather here has been memorable to say the least Only plans you can make is to not make plans until you look out side!

 

[setsailsoon]

16 July 2024 Finishing Up my OB Pool

I've gone through a massive amount of acid in the first month operation as predicted. Seem to average between .3-.5 gal. For the first month I was targeting CSI of .5 while keeping pH inside the TFP recommendation of 7.5-8.0. I watched it very closely and in fact have almost depleted my pH reagent to be sure I was taking good care of the plaster during this first critical curing period. All the experts agree this will improve plaster longevity.

As Pool Math predicted, I've also been watching TA drop dramatically (my raw well water has a LOT, at ~300) as I added all this acid. I'm now running 60 ppm and that allows me to let pH run ~7.8 as I drop the CSI to slightly negative. Mostly about -.05 to -.1. I'm also getting 20 bags of salt delivered this week to begin start of the swg. Will be fantastic to be out of the LC jug lugging business. I'm using about .5 gal/day and I'm expecting that will drop after the enclosure is up. Progress is much slower than plan on that due to contractor's labor availability and several errors in their shop fabrication. They still have a lot of $ outstanding so they're pretty motivated to complete this correctly. Make note of this when any of you do your own subcontracting. The initial proposal had me paying 80% at this point. But they readily agreed I wouldn't pay that much until the structure was substantially complete.

Automation is going slow mostly due to me. Taking much more effort for this neophyte to learn this stuff even with a lot of generous help from experts. It's not the RPi or it's software. It's me. But I'll get there sooner or later. In the meantime manual switching still works. Imagine that!

Spa jets and air pump are working great now that I have enough of them. Somehow I was 3 short with my order.

We ran several of the LED lights and have 4 more to run. This is pretty easy with the large conduit that used large radius bends and separate runs for each light. I just run my fish tape from the junction boxes on top of the conduit, tape the wire end to the tape and pull it back. My wife and I did a LOT of this re-wiring an old sailboat years ago so this was pretty easy for us. Transformer is already mounted on the wall so I hope to hook them up next day or two. Can't wait to see that view at night.

Enclosure is going slow but it's going! As soon as they complete it I'll be able to get the small retaining walls (about 3' on each side of the basin) up and then do about 1/2 day of grading. After that, reconnect to the modified irrigation system behind the pool and add sod! Then one final inspection and we should be good.

Chris

 

[setsailsoon]

Contracting Strategy

******Woops! found a little error in the contracting quilt below so I replaced it with the updated version******

One of the earliest activities an OB should undertake in their planning is to determine the optimum contracting strategy for their pool. This should be determined and decided by the OB BEFORE contracting activities start. It can be updated as you execute and learn more but you should have a plan up front that is thought through based on your available time, level of expertise/capability, and the capability of your subs. Develop a contracting quilt that shows your plans. I've added the quilt for my job below. Notice the thick red lines within the quilt. These represent interfaces between subs and entities you will need to manage. Contractors generally charge more for managing more because this interface can cost them a lot of money if not done right. An example is procurement. Subs need a lot of materials to do their job. Some are bulks like thin set, cement, grout and are almost always best provided by the sub. But others need to at least be decided by the OB. There are many kinds of interfaces such as inspections, work area planning, owner provided materials and quite a few more. Just know the more thick lines you have the more work you're taking on and the more risk of cost increase because you don't manage the interface properly. One that always takes a lot of time is timing start for each sub. They aren't sitting around waiting for your job. They try to be working every day. And they want to have a large backlog. So they need notice. I try to call subs at least weekly when I'm a month out, then 2-3 times per week then daily so they can plan my work with their existing commitments. This is OFTEN mismanaged by PB's and OB's and it's just not all that hard to do. A few phone calls a week isn't all that hard.

Take a look at the one I have below. Questions/comments are welcome. I did this in Excel and couldn't paste it. Let me know if you want the file and I'll add a link to it.

Chris

 

[setsailsoon]

Enclosure people made a lot of progress yesterday. The picture window is also taking shape. Previous versions I saw from @kimkats first introduction of this concept years ago had it much smaller. The cost to increase to this size was pretty minimal so I went with a full 32' wide and 12' high that frames in the entire infinity edge. There will be a beam at the bottom but it should be low enough to be barely visible from the patio.

Kim, thanks for yet another great feature you came up with for our design. We're really enjoying this pool already and grand kids are coming tonight!

Chris

First view of picture window during install:


Yesterday view:

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Curiosity - how do they tie the enclosure into the house ? They must have to connect to a load bearing column/beam?

 

[kimkats]

Kim, thanks for yet another great feature you came up with for our design.

It was my pleasure to spend your money LOL It sure was worth it and then some!! What a wonderful view!!

 

[setsailsoon]

Curiosity - how do they tie the enclosure into the house ? They must have to connect to a load bearing column/beam?

Great question. Yes, they actually tear off the original 6" standard gutter and replace it with a 7" heavy duty super gutter that ties into the fascia which is screwed into the ends of the trusses. I'm not sure how thick super gutter is but it feels more like pipe. To do this they usually have to remove the old fascia and replace it with 2x4's that are attached with 3 1/2" deck screws so they can carry the load to the concrete beams across the columns in the back of the patio. Since i knew we were doing the pool I already had the 2x4's installed this way for the fascia. These columns are structural not decorative. They're made of square cinder blocks that have rebar and concrete all the way up to the beams. Below the foundation it's supported by reinforced 42" square concrete footers since these columns carry a large amount of the roof loads. You may recall during excavation I had to spray gunite to protect soil integrity under the footers. Since our house has 12' walls I had the enclosure designed to match. Surprisingly this only cost a little over $1000 because this still meant none of the aluminum framing went about 14' above ground level. Above this, wind loading calcs drive cost up a LOT with the new building codes.

Chris

 

[KevMo]

I'm also getting 20 bags of salt delivered this week to begin start of the swg

I would recommend adding your salt in phases and see what your SWG likes rather than all at once. Are the 20 bags 40 lbs each? If so, 800 lbs will raise the salt over 3,400 ppm. Overshooting results in having to drain and replace water.

Be sure to test the water first. The salt level may not be zero. I have a Pentair IC60 that onsistently reads 800-1,200 more than the drop test and my digital meter. When I first added salt I thought went conservative with what I added. However, my salt cell reported too high salt levels for about a week before I drained and replaced about 10% of my pool.

 

[setsailsoon]

I would recommend adding your salt in phases and see what your SWG likes rather than all at once. Are the 20 bags 40 lbs each? If so, 800 lbs will raise the salt over 3,400 ppm. Overshooting results in having to drain and replace water.

Be sure to test the water first. The salt level may not be zero. I have a Pentair IC60 that onsistently reads 800-1,200 more than the drop test and my digital meter. When I first added salt I thought went conservative with what I added. However, my salt cell reported too high salt levels for about a week before I drained and replaced about 10% of my pool.

Yes, I'm aware of this should have clarified I have 1000 ppm salt already so don't need it all for the pool. But they had a free delivery sale for 20 bags. My well water is crappy so I use a lot of salt for the softener also. I use several bags per month for it. I only use the K-1766 for salt level. Thanks for the reply.

Chris

 

[setsailsoon]

Sorry for the long pause here. Been finishing up a lot of little details and I have some additional information on costs to post here I'll do that next couple of days. One nagging issue I'm having is getting my Raspberry Pi control system running. I have an interim esp32 system that's providing all manual but at least remote control of the basic functions. I think a part of the issue I'm having is from Pentair Superflow VS pumps. Just want to document the basic issues here and I'll provide more detail on my automation thread. Here's what I know so far and a question I have:

• Neither the Pentair Superflow VS nor the Superflow XF VS seem to have real RS 485 control.
• All I can get to work reliably on either pump is a report of status on the RS 485 wires (green/yellow) from the automation cable.
• Both pumps have a "power out" signal but it's a very low amperage signal (5-20 ma).
• The Superflow VS red power out wire is +5v
• The Superflow XF red power out wire is +24v
• I can very reliably use the digital I/O wires to select speeds 1-4 on the Superflow VS using almost any signal that is stated in the manual (5-30VAC or DC)
• The superflow XF VS seems to only work using it's power out wire (+24v). The manual clearly states that any signal in the 5-30 V AC or DC will work. But there's also this paragraph that seems to contradict this saying that the digital I/O must use the power out "trigger signal". I can't find any information about how this works. All I can say is that I can use the red power out to control any of the digital inputs to change speed but no other external signal seems to work.
• Implementing the digital I/O for both pumps seems to work much more reliably using Ext Control enabled and Auto Prime off.
• I can display the speed, and wattage using simple software to decode the status command. None of the other Pentair RS 485 commands work.

Does anybody here have any information on how to implement the "trigger signal" using an external power supply as shown in the manual? Are there possibly some jumpers inside the pump motor that need to be changed?

I hope this is helpful to somebody and I also hope somebody can answer my question about the trigger signal.

If I had this to do over I would have bought the intelliflo pump for the filter pump. I believe these can be run pretty easily using the Pentair RS 485 protocol. But I don't think the 5 hp commercial pump is available in anything other than the Superflo XF version.

Chris

PS Even though implementing the RPi automation is proving challenging we're thrilled with the pool. Here's a recent photo:

 

[JoyfulNoise]

@MyAZPool or @ajw22 - any ideas on how to help Chris with the automation side? Any contacts at Pentair you guys know of that could help? His commercial grade 5HP pump is probably not something most residential pool owners would ever tackle but I’ve got to believe that Pentair has kept the comms/automation controls consistent across their brands even into the commercial space??

Chris - your pool is simply amazing . The automation issues will work out eventually but you should be really proud and happy about how that pool turned out … definitely a dream come true for anyone that imagines what a backyard oasis looks like. Well done, sir

 

[ajw22]

I have no Pentair contacts and have never spoken to anyone within the company.

Pentair has not kept the comms/automation controls consistent across their brands. That has lead to many incompatibilities and confusion with Pentair automation. For example Solartouch controllers only worked with some Intelliflo pumps and not others. The Intelliconnect required various firmware updates to get it to RS-485 control Intelliflo pumps, Superflow VST pumps, and Intelliflo3 pumps. Those pumps all have different RS-485 control implementations. And the iChlor Smart Sense Flow Detection only works with Intelliflo pumps and not Superflo or other models. I could go on but you get the idea.

Unfortunately I am not surprised that the commercial Superflow pump has a different automation implementation. It seems like Pentair contracts out each product to a different team who can do their own implementation.

Pentair software/firmware development is a mess as we see from the lack of IntelliCenter updates or the Intellivalve mess.

 

[MyAZPool]

@setsailsoon
Chris, I'll try. Contact me on the PM side and provide me with an email address.
Type up exactly what your concerns and questions are to them and I'll copy/paste that into an email to several folks that might be able to help. I'll include your email address so they can respond directly to you.
Not sure this will help but we won't know unless we try.
r.
btw... Pool and view is awesome. I'm sure the alligators think so too. LOL...

 

[setsailsoon]

@MyAZPool or @ajw22 - any ideas on how to help Chris with the automation side? Any contacts at Pentair you guys know of that could help? His commercial grade 5HP pump is probably not something most residential pool owners would ever tackle but I’ve got to believe that Pentair has kept the comms/automation controls consistent across their brands even into the commercial space??

Chris - your pool is simply amazing . The automation issues will work out eventually but you should be really proud and happy about how that pool turned out … definitely a dream come true for anyone that imagines what a backyard oasis looks like. Well done, sir

Matt,

Thanks for the kind words. We're very pleased and thankful that it's better because of the great help I've gotten from TFP members. I'm not just saying this. It's really true. From startup and use of well water to the huge pump and design support, automation, enclosure features, construction advice, and everything between - we got a better pool because I'm a member of TFP. Thank you all!

Chris

 

[Newdude]

we got a better pool because I'm a member of TFP

James got me blacklisted from every contractor north of the Mason/Dixon line, but it was worth it. So same.

 

[JamesW]

James got me blacklisted from every contractor north of the Mason/Dixon line, but it was worth it.

I'm pretty sure that half of those contractors would have banned you anyway, so I can only take credit for the other half.

 

[Newdude]

I'm pretty sure that half of those contractors would have banned you anyway

It's not our fault they took *ZERO* pride in their work.

Big. Fat. Goose. Egg. Of. Workmanship.

 

[JamesW]

It's not our fault they took *ZERO* pride in their work.

The problem is that you called them out on the quality control, which is a big No-No.

 

[setsailsoon]

Winding down to last few posts on this thread. I still owe some cost info that I'll extract from my spreadsheet. I think I'll start a new thread that will contain operating learnings and tips for infinity edge and zero edge pools. There have been quite a few surprises for me... mostly good. I'll start with my most recent learning about how easy it is to dump your pool all down the back yard even with appropriate check valves in place! Here's the link to the new thread.

Chris