Recurring Metal Stains... worse than ever...

There's one more way left outlier, but I am loath to mention it anywhere but the deep end. Actually, two.

1. There is a type of iron that is bacterial, believe it or not. Wells get it. Since your under liner surface is wood, it may be possible the staining is from under the liner, and mildly permeating liner....but that the AA somehow still neutralizes it...maybe just even the
acidity.

Just future thoughts depending on next steps.

Swampwoman, funny you posted about iron bacteria. I just got off the phone from a conference call with the top chemist at Periodic Products.

And I get that the CuLator is much maligned here but I'm at the point where I'll entertain any and all suggestions. They were puzzled by the lack of metals found on their water testing when my photos and videos have them convinced I have a metal staining problem.

They are wondering if the stains are indeed bacterial staining (which is not lifted in suspension but basically bleached by the AA treatment) which is permanently adhered to the liner.

One of the things that is peculiar is that my pool stains have a "regular shape". They always come back in the same spots and the same shapes. On the slope towards the deep end, there is a particular half circle spot that always comes back in the exact same shape.

They want me to try an experiment because they're not 100% sure it is bacterial. Here is what they want me to do. Since I have staining at the base that holds the SWG cell and on the return pipes in the in floor cleaning distribution valve, they suggested I treat those areas with AA to completely lift the stain. Afterwards, they want me to rinse it well. Then, they want me to put highly chlorinated water on the freshly cleaned areas and let it sit for a few hours. Their theory is that if its iron bacteria, the pipes will re-stain after introducing the highly chlorinated water. If it's regular metal stains, it should stay stain free since the AA treatment would have removed the offending metals.


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Here is my very harsh opinion

This thread has lost it's practical line of thinking.

My well and pool has never tested for iron, yet I have iron and it comes from that well.

OP, you can remove those iron stains (as you have proven) and they will stay away if you will use sequestrant in the dosages required. I cannot see where you have done that.

We are making a simple issue complex. We are not helping people learn.
 
Here is my very harsh opinion

This thread has lost it's practical line of thinking.

My well and pool has never tested for iron, yet I have iron and it comes from that well.

OP, you can remove those iron stains (as you have proven) and they will stay away if you will use sequestrant in the dosages required. I cannot see where you have done that.

We are making a simple issue complex. We are not helping people learn.

Fine I guess that's my cue to quit posting.


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No, I certainly don't see it as your cue to quit posting but I hope you will recognize your issue.

You have removed the stains with AA treatment, right. Those are iron stains......that's what aa removes

They came back, right? That's almost surely because you did not maintain the sequestrant at the proper level. Sequestrant is needed eternally in a pool that has iron in it's source water.

Does that make sense? Would you agree the sequestrant has not been maintained?

Do you agree those are iron stains?
 
JoyfulNoise, thank you for the detailed reply. I'd like to clarify a few things...

I have only been using GLB Stain Magnet since AFTER I added the additional valves to bypass the pool heater from water circulation. Before that, I was using ascorbic acid but it would always put a high chlorine demand on the pool and tended to make the water cloudy for a few days after treatment.

I already drained most of the pool at the beginning of this pool season. I almost drained too much water as my liner started to shrink in the shallow end. To my surprise, it didn't seem like draining water helped as much as I hoped.

For the metal sequestrant, I use Jack's Purple Stuff... I thought that is an HEDP sequestrant.

I have used two copper test kits (one was drop based), one was paper strips. Both show almost no copper in the water as do the local pool stores and most recently, the folks at Periodic Products (the makers of the CuLator).

About the salt cell. Mine is clear so I can see the plates easily and they look perfectly fine, they're not even showing signs of scaling as they do mid-way through the season.


Sometimes you cant tell until you take it out.
 
Well. I've never had any staining at all, source water mostly from rain. I used a different brand of salt for the first time and I instantly had iron staining where the salt hit, and only where it hit and was in a higher concentration. A very dark stripe, then dissipating across the pool. The far side stayed bright blue. I'm sure any brand has occasional impurities, including iron, but is it possible the iron source could be the brand of salt being used? I'm pretty sure if I used multiple bags of the stuff that caused my temporary stain I'd likely have a longer term issue.
 
Well, my staining returned after just 6 days and using about a quart a week of Jack's Purple Stuff per week. This means that my Salt Cell experiment was a failure. I was wondering if not running the salt chlorinator whatsover (but adding liquid chlorine instead) would at least slow down or eliminate the returning of stains (provided I keep the right amount of metal sequestrant in the water).

Since the stains returned, I decided to discontinue the SWG experiment and do an additional AA treatment. I left left the SWG turned off and added 2.25 lbs of Ascorbic Acid and followed it with 3 quarts of Jack's Purple Stuff. I've also added Polyquat 60 to make sure I don't get algae while the chlorine is at zero. The pool turned much more cloudier than usual but I added lots of sequestrant so the plan is to keep the pump running until it clears and follow up with additional Polyquat in a few days as directed in the AA treatment instructions.

I'm very frustrated. The amounts of stain remover and sequestrant I'm having to use are just unsustainable. Isn't Jack's Purple Stuff one of the recommended metal sequestrants here? I'm tempted to try some other brand.

IMG_0799.jpg
 

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Carlos, Jacks Purple is formulated for swg, as the salt causes high TDS that interferes with other brands. Before switching to saltwater, I always liked metal magic as it seemed to lift stains as well in higher doses.

Can you take a pic of the whole pool stained -- or did you already treat?...its odd to me to see the floor stained...but I guess since thats where your "jets" are so it makes sense.
 
Carlos, Jacks Purple is formulated for swg, as the salt causes high TDS that interferes with other brands. Before switching to saltwater, I always liked metal magic as it seemed to lift stains as well in higher doses.

Can you take a pic of the whole pool stained -- or did you already treat?...its odd to me to see the floor stained...but I guess since thats where your "jets" are so it makes sense.

I already treated so the stains are all gone but all my staining is mostly on the floors and the wall slopes directly below the wall returns.
 
Try looking for a regal pool product called stain out. Relatively cheap and those stains will go away.

That looks like it has the same chemical makeup as the GLB Stain Magnet. Sodium Sulfite, and Sodium Erythorbate. I don't have a problem lifting the stain, my problem is keeping the stain away for good.

In other words, it looks like I'm not using enough sequestrant but I can't imagine that I'm really needing to use more than a quart a week. The worst part is that I've yet to really identify the source of the iron in my pool.
 
Having gone through something similar I feel your frustration.

Out of curiosity, have you used the Jack's Magic sequestrant test kit to see if you're able to maintain the recommmended sequestrant level?

Many years ago when I started having a staining issue in our salt pool it took ALOT of Purple stuff at first (over $600 worth!) before a normal weekly maintenance dose was sufficient to keep standing from returning. Since then a normal weekly maintenance dose has been sufficient to keep the pool stain free.
 
I have their sequestrant test kit.

However, are you saying that you spent close to $600 just trying to keep the sequestrant at the recommended level? What time frame are we talking about? $600 over several months? The entire pool season?


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Here's the thing I'm wondering about...

You've done partial water changes and I think even a total water change. Normally, dilution would reduce the ppm of any iron or copper level and thus reduce the volume of sequestrant needed subsequently to keep whatever's left in suspension. In your case, the sense is that dilution isn't making a difference or impacting your volume of sequestrant consumption...correct?

Dilution of concentration is how it worked for me, but only after I'd both switched to softened water on the outdoor spigot and started using a 10" Pentak filter with a 25 ppm to 1 ppm filter on the spigot.

At the same time, if you don't have a home water softener (do you?) and you had that much iron in your source water, you would see iron staining in our dishwasher, toilet etc. If you don't have a softener and you don't have iron staining, then your source water is not likely the culprit.

Salt can in fact introduce low levels of iron to the water...each time you've refilled, have you used the same brand of salt?

Right now it sounds like you're entirely bypassing the heater; we know your cell is stained; and we also know you've checked every nook and cranny for eroding metal.

If all the above are true, ie, you've had heater bypassed entirely since last dilution, you added a different brand of salt, your home fixtures aren't stained, etc. that makes me a bit suspicious that something is happening either below the liner or something not bonded is exacerbating what would otherwise be mild iron issues in swg due to trace amounts of iron in some brands of salt etc., or in your case, soil blow in and rain with trace amounts of iron.

Iron bacteria in wells comes from iron bacteria in the soil and is usually addressed by chlorine injection, but at a much greater concentration than in a pool. While that fact in itself isn't helpful, what happens if you slam (have you ever?) - does the metal tint the water, do the stains intensify?

Am I correct that your liner is 5 years old but you've only had significant staining problems the last 3 years?

How old is your pool? Is the underground plumbing PVC for sure? Not copper?

When you get your Iron test kit, test the water when the stains are back - and your outdoor spigot water. If you show little or no iron etc. my offer stands to buy the tester from you, btw ;)

Another strange question is do you use borates?
It might have been a different thread, but Joyful Noise pointed out recently that borates can reduce the internal ph in a cell, I believe.

Boric acid also came to mind because I was thinking about those wood walls under there...I rehabbed my forclosure crawlspace wood with a boric acid treatment that in effect sterilized it against all growths. If its technically possible for iron bacteria to grow on wood, I'm wondering if a borate perimeter treatment is viable.

I've never heard of such a thing, BUT I have run across rare cases of under-liner staining where a perimeter treatment of ferric sulphate (which sounds crazy, as yes, ferric means iron) has eradicated under liner issues by changing the ph of the soil.

Others report using fungicides, which boric acid it.
Here's a link to an article about under liner staining:Vinyl Liners: Tackling the Toughest Stains of All, the Kind Behind the Liner| Pool Spa News | Maintenance, Quarterly Market Reports
 
I have their sequestrant test kit.

However, are you saying that you spent close to $600 just trying to keep the sequestrant at the recommended level? What time frame are we talking about? $600 over several months? The entire pool season?


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I want to say it was over a period of 3 weeks or so, maybe (it was many years ago)? If you like I can dig up my records and get more accurate info for you.

Since you have the sequest test kit, how much Purple Stuff are you having to add each week to maintain the recommended level?

In my case the only sources of metal contamination I could think of is either my fill water (city), from the salt (doesn't seem to matter which brand), or maybe some of both. The odd thing is a metal test came up negative despite the fact if I don't use the sequestrant I will get staining.
 
Here's the thing I'm wondering about...

You've done partial water changes and I think even a total water change. Normally, dilution would reduce the ppm of any iron or copper level and thus reduce the volume of sequestrant needed subsequently to keep whatever's left in suspension. In your case, the sense is that dilution isn't making a difference or impacting your volume of sequestrant consumption...correct?

That seems about right...

Dilution of concentration is how it worked for me, but only after I'd both switched to softened water on the outdoor spigot and started using a 10" Pentak filter with a 25 ppm to 1 ppm filter on the spigot.

At the same time, if you don't have a home water softener (do you?) and you had that much iron in your source water, you would see iron staining in our dishwasher, toilet etc. If you don't have a softener and you don't have iron staining, then your source water is not likely the culprit.

Salt can in fact introduce low levels of iron to the water...each time you've refilled, have you used the same brand of salt?

I'm on city water, no softener. I've checked the toilet water tanks and they're pristine. Multiple tests of my source water (by me and others) have never shown any iron.

Right now it sounds like you're entirely bypassing the heater; we know your cell is stained; and we also know you've checked every nook and cranny for eroding metal.

Well, remember the cell stain is an older photo, not recent. I cleaned the cell base at the beginning of this season when I did an AA treatment right before draining a lot of pool water. I inspected the pool cell and pipes this past saturday and they're stain free.


If all the above are true, ie, you've had heater bypassed entirely since last dilution, you added a different brand of salt, your home fixtures aren't stained, etc. that makes me a bit suspicious that something is happening either below the liner or something not bonded is exacerbating what would otherwise be mild iron issues in swg due to trace amounts of iron in some brands of salt etc., or in your case, soil blow in and rain with trace amounts of iron.

I really doubt it could be something behind the liner as the tiniest amount of AA (like inside a sock) immediately removes the stain off the liner and you can see no trace of the stain. On the other hand, I can't imagine that the liner is permeable enough to let something like iron leach thru the liner.

Iron bacteria in wells comes from iron bacteria in the soil and is usually addressed by chlorine injection, but at a much greater concentration than in a pool. While that fact in itself isn't helpful, what happens if you slam (have you ever?) - does the metal tint the water, do the stains intensify?

Am I correct that your liner is 5 years old but you've only had significant staining problems the last 3 years?

How old is your pool? Is the underground plumbing PVC for sure? Not copper?

The last 3 years have been quite problematic. Early on (maybe year # 2?) there was mild staining on just the plastic pool fittings that went away by just adding a product called Conquest when the pool was opened.

Another strange question is do you use borates?
It might have been a different thread, but Joyful Noise pointed out recently that borates can reduce the internal ph in a cell, I believe.

I've never worried about explicitly keeping a certain Borates level. I do use Borax occasionally to manipulate pH if needed.

Boric acid also came to mind because I was thinking about those wood walls under there...I rehabbed my forclosure crawlspace wood with a boric acid treatment that in effect sterilized it against all growths. If its technically possible for iron bacteria to grow on wood, I'm wondering if a borate perimeter treatment is viable.

I've never heard of such a thing, BUT I have run across rare cases of under-liner staining where a perimeter treatment of ferric sulphate (which sounds crazy, as yes, ferric means iron) has eradicated under liner issues by changing the ph of the soil.

I can't imagine how something like that is possible in my setup. My pool is surrounded by concrete so the only way to reach those walls would be to empty the pool and remove the liner.
 

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