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Thread: PH options ThankYou Patrick B & Oldguy70

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    PH options ThankYou Patrick B & Oldguy70

    Hello,

    i am am looking for some options on PH control. Here is the history. We are not new pool owners or new to the TFP way of doing things. We were actually BB(B) method before we found this amazing message board. Our pool has always needed MA on a regular basis, even before we added the SWG. Probably because we kept the TA on the high side (120 or so) because we liked the feel of the water. Last fall we added our SWG when we redid all of the plumbing and electrical to the pad. When we added the SWG, we lowered the TA to its current level of 80.

    Now the problem. (Ya'll see this coming from a mile away) We are adding MA at a rate of 12oz daily. That is targeting a PH of 7.8. By the end of the day, the PH will be up to 7.9-7.95. It will creep up to 8.2 if we let it. (calibrated Hanna digital PH meter) Adding MA wouldn't be so burdensome if we both didn't travel for work. I am considering lowering the TA to 60 and see what that does. For now, boric acid is out of the question because we have dogs. They like to take the occasional drink from the pool.

    Looking for option....

    FC 8
    CC 0
    PH 7.8 for now
    TA 80
    CH 400
    CYA 80
    Borates 0
    Salt 3900
    PO4 50


    Thank You,
    Bryan
    33,000 Gallon In Ground Gunite/Plaster
    1.5 HP Pentair Wisperflow 2 speed pump and Pentair 60 DE filter
    3/4 HP Pentair Booster pump and Polaris 280 cleaner
    Cirrcupool SJ55 SWG. TF100 test kit

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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: PH options

    Things to do to slow pH rise.

    Run water features less, like bubblers, waterfalls, etc.
    Lower your TA to 50-60 and let your pH rise to 8.0 before lowering it to 7.6

    Dogs taking occasional drinks from a pool with 50 ppm borates isn't an issue. I have one dog who drinks pool water once or twice a day, along with other sources, and the only effect it has had on him is to make him fat and lazy! We've had that dog longer than we've had the pool.
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    Mod Squad JVTrain's Avatar
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    Re: PH options

    I would certainly try your TA at 60 ppm, even as low as 50. Your CSI is still in a good place when your pH is at 7.8 with a lower TA. With that lower TA, you wouldn't want your pH down around 7.4 consistently but that doesn't seem to be your problem at all.
    Joel - TFP Moderator - Minnesota - **Become a TFP Supporter!** Helpful Links: ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry - SLAM Procedure - Chlorine/CYA Chart
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    Re: PH options

    I forgot to mention that we don't have any PH raising water features that run regularly. We do have sprayers along the edge of the pool, but we only run them when we are entertaining.

    I havent seen 7.4 ever I don't think that will be a problem.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I would really like to give boric acid a try....just nervous with the dogs. The pool is not their main water source though. Maybe I'm just being overly cautious with our fur babies.
    33,000 Gallon In Ground Gunite/Plaster
    1.5 HP Pentair Wisperflow 2 speed pump and Pentair 60 DE filter
    3/4 HP Pentair Booster pump and Polaris 280 cleaner
    Cirrcupool SJ55 SWG. TF100 test kit

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    Patrick_B's Avatar
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    Re: PH options

    No worries about the Dogs, and nothing wrong with Borates, but there is no rush. You do want to get the TA down first, and It's just another opinion, but seeing how your pool behaves with it there for a while isn't a bad thing.
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    Re: PH options

    ThankYou everyone for the replies.
    33,000 Gallon In Ground Gunite/Plaster
    1.5 HP Pentair Wisperflow 2 speed pump and Pentair 60 DE filter
    3/4 HP Pentair Booster pump and Polaris 280 cleaner
    Cirrcupool SJ55 SWG. TF100 test kit

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    Re: PH options

    Automate your pH control. There are several good members here (mas985) who control pH very simply with a Stenner type system.

    If you dig deeply into the real research of dogs and borates, it is mostly non-relevant. Honestly, drinking pool water may be safer for them than much of the commercial dog food on the market.
    Dave S.
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    Re: PH options

    duraleigh, that might not be bad way to go either. I hadn't considered a Stenner system. I am going to lower the TA first and see how that goes.
    33,000 Gallon In Ground Gunite/Plaster
    1.5 HP Pentair Wisperflow 2 speed pump and Pentair 60 DE filter
    3/4 HP Pentair Booster pump and Polaris 280 cleaner
    Cirrcupool SJ55 SWG. TF100 test kit

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    Re: PH options

    Good move. If you automate with a controller, just stay on top of it and make sure your pH probe stays calibrated.
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    Re: PH options

    Just my personal experience using a Hanna Digital pH tester...the care needed to have an accurate test is excessive, the probe needs constant cleaning, constant calibration, constant proper pH storage...and how you calibrate and to what you calibrate can be up to .3-.5 off.

    I would double check your pH using Taylor test kit and compare so you know you are accurate....just my 2 cents



    Quote Originally Posted by BPKlein View Post
    Hello,

    i am am looking for some options on PH control. Here is the history. We are not new pool owners or new to the TFP way of doing things. We were actually BB(B) method before we found this amazing message board. Our pool has always needed MA on a regular basis, even before we added the SWG. Probably because we kept the TA on the high side (120 or so) because we liked the feel of the water. Last fall we added our SWG when we redid all of the plumbing and electrical to the pad. When we added the SWG, we lowered the TA to its current level of 80.

    Now the problem. (Ya'll see this coming from a mile away) We are adding MA at a rate of 12oz daily. That is targeting a PH of 7.8. By the end of the day, the PH will be up to 7.9-7.95. It will creep up to 8.2 if we let it. (calibrated Hanna digital PH meter).....
    Valley of the Sun, Arizona.....10k gunite/pebble (Re-surface March 2015) w/in floor Caretaker 99 cleaning heads -- Pentair FNS 60 DE filter -- Pentair IntelliFlo Variable Speed for pool -- Pentair Wisperflo 1 HP for boulder waterfall...Taylor K-2006 & Taylor K-2006C kits

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    Re: PH options

    A very good $.02 worth Oldguy. Reading some of my posts one might guess I am against meters, but the opposite is true. I've had loads, and loads of hands on experience with many, and I know how important it is to keep up with those very things if you're going to trust them. That done, they are great. More accuracy than you'll need for a pool but helpful especially to those who are color blind.
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    Re: PH options

    I'm wondering if you have some type of external factor that is causing your Ph to do this. I typically add 4oz of MA per week and have gone two weeks on occasion only adding 4oz of MA.
    My numbers are very similar to yours. I keep my Ph at 7.7.

    I have a waterfall that is ran for about 1 hour per week to keep the water cycled through the pump and plumbing.

    These are my results from today.

    FC - 8
    CC - 0
    Ph - 7.8
    TA - 80
    CH - 325
    CYA - 80
    FL, 15K gal (15x30 rectangle beach entry), IG Plaster, 2010, 1 skimmer, 4 returns, ecostar VSP, Pro Clean (PCCF-125) cartridge filter, IC20 SWG, Hayward Navigator floor suction cleaner, solar heat, waterfall, 2 lion head spouts, 1hp pump, TF-100 w/SpeedStir

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    Re: PH options

    Flp, what % do you run your ic20 at?
    17,250 gallon plaster pool & spa, IC40 SWCG, Cartridge Filter, CYA 70-80, Boric 50 ppm, Temp~84F, Naples, FL.

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    Re: PH options

    I've been been running my SWG at 40% through the winter with an average water temperature of 70 degrees. Summer months I adjust between 80% and 100% depending on pool use.
    I check my FC and Ph daily and adjust as needed also.
    FL, 15K gal (15x30 rectangle beach entry), IG Plaster, 2010, 1 skimmer, 4 returns, ecostar VSP, Pro Clean (PCCF-125) cartridge filter, IC20 SWG, Hayward Navigator floor suction cleaner, solar heat, waterfall, 2 lion head spouts, 1hp pump, TF-100 w/SpeedStir

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    Re: PH options

    Quote Originally Posted by FLPoolDIY View Post
    I've been been running my SWG at 40% through the winter with an average water temperature of 70 degrees. Summer months I adjust between 80% and 100% depending on pool use.
    I check my FC and Ph daily and adjust as needed also.
    Thanks, through this spring, at 84F most days I needed to run my ic40 (17,250 gallons) at 55%. This past Monday I boosted CYA by 15 ppm to >70 and I can run my SWCG at 35-40 and hold 7.5-8 ppm. I'm hoping that slows the ph rise.
    17,250 gallon plaster pool & spa, IC40 SWCG, Cartridge Filter, CYA 70-80, Boric 50 ppm, Temp~84F, Naples, FL.

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    Re: PH options

    If you fellas or ladies are discussing SWCG %'s and not pump run times too, and multiplying them to get cell run time, then you may as well as be speaking English and Chinese.
    18'x38' Rectangle (3'-8 1/2' deep w/ diving board) - 27K gal. w/ gray plaster
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    Re: PH options

    Quote Originally Posted by oldguy70 View Post
    Just my personal experience using a Hanna Digital pH tester...the care needed to have an accurate test is excessive, the probe needs constant cleaning, constant calibration, constant proper pH storage...and how you calibrate and to what you calibrate can be up to .3-.5 off.

    I would double check your pH using Taylor test kit and compare so you know you are accurate....just my 2 cents
    Ill double check my readings with the Taylor test. That's probably a good idea. Testing it and calibrating it in Hanna 7.01 calibration fluid has proven to me that it doesn't drift very far though.

    Thank You,
    Bryan

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by FLPoolDIY View Post
    I'm wondering if you have some type of external factor that is causing your Ph to do this. I typically add 4oz of MA per week and have gone two weeks on occasion only adding 4oz of MA.
    My numbers are very similar to yours. I keep my Ph at 7.7.

    I have a waterfall that is ran for about 1 hour per week to keep the water cycled through the pump and plumbing.

    These are my results from today.

    FC - 8
    CC - 0
    Ph - 7.8
    TA - 80
    CH - 325
    CYA - 80
    I can't imagine what external influence there might be. The typical PH raising stuff like waterfalls and fountains don't exist in our pool. As mentioned above, I am going to cross check the PH meter that I use.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I do appreciate all of the advice. I think my next steps should be.... 1 cross check the accuracy of my PH meter. 2 If the meter is accurate, then lower TA to 50. 3 If still needed then look at boric acid additions.

    Thank You,
    Bryan
    33,000 Gallon In Ground Gunite/Plaster
    1.5 HP Pentair Wisperflow 2 speed pump and Pentair 60 DE filter
    3/4 HP Pentair Booster pump and Polaris 280 cleaner
    Cirrcupool SJ55 SWG. TF100 test kit

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    Patrick_B's Avatar
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    Re: PH options

    Not long after I answered this thread yesterday I found this unfortunate situation that another member experienced. If you are going to rely on pH meters for testing, and especially control, you must get to know them, keep up with them, and make certain they are calibrated at all times. At some point, they are guaranteed to be wrong, and or fail. As I said, I am not opposed to them at all, but I have pretty much seen everything when it comes to their behavior.

    Checking a pH meter with just 7.0 buffer will get you into trouble. You need to be calibrating it against two, such as 4.0 and 7.0 or 10.0 and 7.0. If your meter isnt capable of that, I would look for one that is.

    It's fine if you want to do it, but pH control this tight, requiring 12 ounces per day of acid is not needed in a pool. pH rises naturally in most pools, TA being a primary driver, and aeration sources adding to it. I'm just saying you dont have to remain right on 7.8 all the time. Try lowering your TA a little, and push your pH down a little further when you add acid.

    TF-100 pH reading off the scale?

    I apologize to Vince, the OP of this thread, but I'm hoping to help others avoid this in the future.
    TFP Moderator
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    ABC's Of Pool Chemistry, Test Kits, SLAM Your Pool
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    Re: PH options

    Quote Originally Posted by bmoreswim View Post
    If you fellas or ladies are discussing SWCG %'s and not pump run times too, and multiplying them to get cell run time, then you may as well as be speaking English and Chinese.
    Totally agree. I forgot to ask him that. After adding more CYA to 80 ppm this week I've dropped from 12 hrs 55% to 12 hrs 35%, holding about 9 ppm FC. With the ic40 that means I've dropped from about 2.4 ppm/day to 1.7 ppm/day FC usage. And importantly PH seems to be holding better.

    Flpooldiy, what is your runtime.
    17,250 gallon plaster pool & spa, IC40 SWCG, Cartridge Filter, CYA 70-80, Boric 50 ppm, Temp~84F, Naples, FL.

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    Re: PH options

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick_B View Post
    Not long after I answered this thread yesterday I found this unfortunate situation that another member experienced. If you are going to rely on pH meters for testing, and especially control, you must get to know them, keep up with them, and make certain they are calibrated at all times. At some point, they are guaranteed to be wrong, and or fail. As I said, I am not opposed to them at all, but I have pretty much seen everything when it comes to their behavior.

    Checking a pH meter with just 7.0 buffer will get you into trouble. You need to be calibrating it against two, such as 4.0 and 7.0 or 10.0 and 7.0. If your meter isnt capable of that, I would look for one that is.

    It's fine if you want to do it, but pH control this tight, requiring 12 ounces per day of acid is not needed in a pool. pH rises naturally in most pools, TA being a primary driver, and aeration sources adding to it. I'm just saying you dont have to remain right on 7.8 all the time. Try lowering your TA a little, and push your pH down a little further when you add acid.

    TF-100 pH reading off the scale?

    I apologize to Vince, the OP of this thread, but I'm hoping to help others avoid this in the future.
    Thank You again for all of the helpful insight and knowledge. I am going to cross check my Hanna meter with other methods. I'll report back.

    Bryan
    33,000 Gallon In Ground Gunite/Plaster
    1.5 HP Pentair Wisperflow 2 speed pump and Pentair 60 DE filter
    3/4 HP Pentair Booster pump and Polaris 280 cleaner
    Cirrcupool SJ55 SWG. TF100 test kit

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