- Jun 24, 2021
- 15,931
- Pool Size
- 29000
- Surface
- Vinyl
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
I did not see a diverter on the suction side. Can you post a picture of that.
Should I install a valve before this pump (picture)?
- Thread starter TwinsPool
- Start date
- Jun 24, 2021
- 15,931
- Pool Size
- 29000
- Surface
- Vinyl
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
I don't see a diverter, can you post pictures of the diverter?
- May 3, 2007
- 18,071
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
The OP may be talking about the flap at the bottom of the skimmer float where you can control flow. It isn't really a diverter and will not completely stop flow from the skimmer.
Also, that may not be a relevant test anyway if the MD is plumbed through the skimmer as it is difficult to separate the two and the MD would naturally have more head loss so would draw in more air even if the leak was not in the MD line.
Also, that may not be a relevant test anyway if the MD is plumbed through the skimmer as it is difficult to separate the two and the MD would naturally have more head loss so would draw in more air even if the leak was not in the MD line.
Actually, the diverter is a tube-like structure that inserts into the skimmer hole. I'll post thumbnail pictures below of the white plastic diverter in my hand and also installed in the bottom of the skimmer.
As shown in my diagram of my previous post (I'll post again), the vertical pipe in the bottom of the skimmer goes down to the main drain, and there is an intersection with a horizontal pipe just below the skimmer that goes to the pump. The 45-degree part of the diverter is at the level of that intersection with the horizontal pipe to the pump, so depending on which direction you have the 45-degree flap aimed, you will get primarily water from below (the main drain) or from above (the skimmer) going to the pump. The diverter can be rotated over a 180-degree range to get what you want. Remember, this is an old pool -- 1977 installation.
- Jun 24, 2021
- 15,931
- Pool Size
- 29000
- Surface
- Vinyl
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
Take the diverter out and try running the pump, see what happens.
Removing the diverter did help noticeably but it didn't fix it. I ran it at 3450 RPM for about 13 minutes. Water was rolling onto the dome more often and with more coverage than with the diverter. However, when the pump was stopped, the level of the water was still not touching the dome of the clear cover (but, as always, was just below it).
I even tried it with these variations:
- with skimmer basket and floating weir
- with skimmer basket but no floating weir
- no skimmer basket or floating weir
They were all about the same without the diverter.
I will now take off the lid, try to feel the impeller for debris, inspect and lube the drain gaskets/o-rings, and inspect the lid gasket.
- Jun 24, 2021
- 15,931
- Pool Size
- 29000
- Surface
- Vinyl
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
Yes, I turned off the power to the pump before sticking my hand in there.
The impeller seemed clear and could be turned. The two pump drain o-rings were compressed but not cracked or broken, but I went to the hardware store and got new ones, lubed them and installed. Put a bit of lube on the pump surface that meets the lid's large O-ring and installed the lid.
Added water to the basket, started a new prime and...
IT WORKED!!!
I think it must have been the drain o-rings! No air at all in the basket now! I am SO relieved that it is not an underground leak!
Thank you all so much for hanging in there with me to solve this problem! I appreciate your help so much!
I'm going to make a new donation to TFP!
The impeller seemed clear and could be turned. The two pump drain o-rings were compressed but not cracked or broken, but I went to the hardware store and got new ones, lubed them and installed. Put a bit of lube on the pump surface that meets the lid's large O-ring and installed the lid.
Added water to the basket, started a new prime and...
IT WORKED!!!
I think it must have been the drain o-rings! No air at all in the basket now! I am SO relieved that it is not an underground leak!
Thank you all so much for hanging in there with me to solve this problem! I appreciate your help so much!
I'm going to make a new donation to TFP!
Some times is can be simplest of things - staring you right in the face. Glad it worked out and all is functioning as it should.Added water to the basket, started a new prime and...
IT WORKED!!!
I think it must have been the drain o-rings! No air at all in the basket now! I am SO relieved that it is not an underground leak!
Thanks for the donation. It is appreciated.
- Jun 24, 2021
- 15,931
- Pool Size
- 29000
- Surface
- Vinyl
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
Uh oh... I spoke too soon...
I went out today and noticed that I did not have the pump basket installed when I did the successful test yesterday. It continued pumping overnight at 1700 RPM without the pump basket, and today there was air under the dome (no water touching the dome). The skimmer basket and the floating weir were installed during the overnight period.
I did three tests below (all done at 3450 RPM and with skimmer basket and floating weir removed to reduced drag as much as possible; also I tightened pump the lid a little more when installing today):
1. I added the pump basket and ran for 10 minutes (still air at top of basket -- when pump turned off, water level was not on the dome, but just barely below it).
2. I removed the basket and ran for about 6 minutes or so (no air bubbles visible while running [1st picture], but when pump turned off, a smallish bubble accumulated at the top of the dome [2nd picture]):
3. I assumed there was some drag/head added by the pump basket that slowed down the flow rate enough to prevent the pump from removing all the air in the basket, so I decided to remove the flapper from the check valve (located on pressure side between the filter and the heater). I tested without the flapper but with the pump basket installed but this was of little help -- essentially same results as Test #1 above.
It does seem that there is still air getting in from somewhere, since there was air in the pump basket this morning, when yesterday there was none. Also, it seems that if air can be almost completely removed simply by removing the pump basket. Maybe the roughness of the pump basket prevents enough rolling turbulence in the basket area to prevent air bubbles from exiting the basket (or maybe the basket slows the flow rate). But still, new air is getting in it seems.
I was wondering... are there O-rings or seals inside the pump that could allow air to enter into the basket area while it is running? Any other ideas?
I went out today and noticed that I did not have the pump basket installed when I did the successful test yesterday. It continued pumping overnight at 1700 RPM without the pump basket, and today there was air under the dome (no water touching the dome). The skimmer basket and the floating weir were installed during the overnight period.
I did three tests below (all done at 3450 RPM and with skimmer basket and floating weir removed to reduced drag as much as possible; also I tightened pump the lid a little more when installing today):
1. I added the pump basket and ran for 10 minutes (still air at top of basket -- when pump turned off, water level was not on the dome, but just barely below it).
2. I removed the basket and ran for about 6 minutes or so (no air bubbles visible while running [1st picture], but when pump turned off, a smallish bubble accumulated at the top of the dome [2nd picture]):
3. I assumed there was some drag/head added by the pump basket that slowed down the flow rate enough to prevent the pump from removing all the air in the basket, so I decided to remove the flapper from the check valve (located on pressure side between the filter and the heater). I tested without the flapper but with the pump basket installed but this was of little help -- essentially same results as Test #1 above.
It does seem that there is still air getting in from somewhere, since there was air in the pump basket this morning, when yesterday there was none. Also, it seems that if air can be almost completely removed simply by removing the pump basket. Maybe the roughness of the pump basket prevents enough rolling turbulence in the basket area to prevent air bubbles from exiting the basket (or maybe the basket slows the flow rate). But still, new air is getting in it seems.
I was wondering... are there O-rings or seals inside the pump that could allow air to enter into the basket area while it is running? Any other ideas?
- Jun 24, 2021
- 15,931
- Pool Size
- 29000
- Surface
- Vinyl
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
Inspect, replace if necessary and lube the o-ring on the union that connects your suction side to the pump.
- May 3, 2007
- 18,071
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
What was the filter pressure for each of the above tests?
The pump basket should not make that much of a difference. The filter pressure, with and without, can indicate how much of a difference it actually is.
The pump basket should not make that much of a difference. The filter pressure, with and without, can indicate how much of a difference it actually is.
I randomly have been looking at the pressure gauge, but I don't see significant changes. I can test again with and without the basket, but I think no matter what, the pressure will be 26.5 to 27 PSI at 3450 RPM. It is no more than 27 with the basket in and the check valve flapper in. (The flapper is still not reinstalled.) Maybe it is just the roughness of the basket that somehow interferes with water turbulence or air removal? I checked the basket and it is a bona-fide Hayward basket with the proper part # on it.
I have never seen pressure go above 27, even when the DE needs changing (like it did a week or two ago). That prompted me to buy a completely new (brass) air relief valve with gauge to replace the plastic one that has always been there. It should arrive today, but although the attachment part looks just like the plastic one, I think something special needs to be done to put a non-Pentair valve/gauge onto this filter. Hope the installation goes smoothly.
Also, regarding the PSI, when I disassembled the DE filter grids for cleaning a week or so ago, I inspected them and they are all intact. I have replaced 4 of the eight grids in the last 6 months or so, the remaining 4 still look okay.
I have never seen pressure go above 27, even when the DE needs changing (like it did a week or two ago). That prompted me to buy a completely new (brass) air relief valve with gauge to replace the plastic one that has always been there. It should arrive today, but although the attachment part looks just like the plastic one, I think something special needs to be done to put a non-Pentair valve/gauge onto this filter. Hope the installation goes smoothly.
Also, regarding the PSI, when I disassembled the DE filter grids for cleaning a week or so ago, I inspected them and they are all intact. I have replaced 4 of the eight grids in the last 6 months or so, the remaining 4 still look okay.
- May 3, 2007
- 18,071
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
If the basket was affecting flow rate, the filter pressure would be lower with the basket than without the basket.
It is possible there may not be any pressure change but it could still affect the purging of the air although with that size pump, it really should not be an issue.
However, 27 PSI is pretty high for that pump so you may have very high head loss plumbing which reduces flow rates and makes priming difficult. Is the heater currently bypassed?
Is the underground copper pipe 1.25"?
What is the distance, pool to pump?
The coupling between the PVC and copper could be another leak source:
It is possible there may not be any pressure change but it could still affect the purging of the air although with that size pump, it really should not be an issue.
However, 27 PSI is pretty high for that pump so you may have very high head loss plumbing which reduces flow rates and makes priming difficult. Is the heater currently bypassed?
Is the underground copper pipe 1.25"?
What is the distance, pool to pump?
The coupling between the PVC and copper could be another leak source:
mas985,
Yes, as you said, the filter PSI is a bit lower with the basket. Maybe that's enough to prevent full priming?
With the basket (I call it ~26.5 PSI):
Without the basket (I call it ~27 PSI):
The heater is not bypassed, and cannot be bypassed with the current setup.
The underground pipe is 1.5" diameter. This picture of the copper pipe was taken while I had inlet PVC disconnected from the incoming copper pipe coming out of the concrete (at that time a few days ago, I replaced the O-ring in the PVC compression fitting at the copper pipe):
The horizontal distance of the copper pipe from the skimmer to the point it exits the ground near the pump is 25 feet. The PVC piping on the pad is a mixture of 2" and 1.5" PVC. Lots of 90 degree turns in the pad PVC pipes though (see pad pics in my post #53). EDIT: Also, all the underground piping for the return to the pool is also 1.5" copper. There are 3 return jets in the pool.
I think I fixed a potential small air leak at that copper-to-PVC transition with a new O-ring. At least the small water leak that I detected when shutting off the pump while priming was gone after the O-ring replacement. For more info, I talked about that repair in, and around, post #23.
Yes, as you said, the filter PSI is a bit lower with the basket. Maybe that's enough to prevent full priming?
With the basket (I call it ~26.5 PSI):
Without the basket (I call it ~27 PSI):
The heater is not bypassed, and cannot be bypassed with the current setup.
The underground pipe is 1.5" diameter. This picture of the copper pipe was taken while I had inlet PVC disconnected from the incoming copper pipe coming out of the concrete (at that time a few days ago, I replaced the O-ring in the PVC compression fitting at the copper pipe):
The horizontal distance of the copper pipe from the skimmer to the point it exits the ground near the pump is 25 feet. The PVC piping on the pad is a mixture of 2" and 1.5" PVC. Lots of 90 degree turns in the pad PVC pipes though (see pad pics in my post #53). EDIT: Also, all the underground piping for the return to the pool is also 1.5" copper. There are 3 return jets in the pool.
I think I fixed a potential small air leak at that copper-to-PVC transition with a new O-ring. At least the small water leak that I detected when shutting off the pump while priming was gone after the O-ring replacement. For more info, I talked about that repair in, and around, post #23.
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- May 3, 2007
- 18,071
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
That really shouldn't prevent priming.
Just another thought is that if the basket is not installed properly, the lid may not tighten all the way.
27 PSI is a little high for that configuration but even at 27 PSI, flow rate should be no less than around 60 GPM and should prime.
I haven't re-read all the post but I thought you had said that there have been times when the pump was primed on high speed and all the air was evacuated. Is that correct?
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For anything prior to starting this thread, I can't say for sure whether there was ever full priming. This is my first pool and I don't think I ever was knowledgeable enough earlier to know when full priming (with no, or just a couple of small, bubbles in the clear dome) had been attained. The only time I have had full priming that I am confident about was yesterday when the basket was not in the pump.
The basket has a solid slot-like feeling when it goes in, so I am sure the basket is in correctly.
I removed that o-ring a few days ago. It looked fine so I lubed it and reinstalled it. I think it should be fine.