Iron stain from pool salt - all or most salts have iron.

the tool predicts a substantial rise in CSI by +0.26. Granted that's CSI, not PH, influenced by other things (CA & CYA among them), it is still the case that the tool is telling me CSI will rise by by .26 by only adding 30 PPM of TA. The "fix" would always be to check PH, find that it rose (indirectly I guess) then add acid and bring down the PH, thus lowering CSI as well. The cycle, as it were. Perhaps the "app" should at least include the CSI rise as an "estimated effect"?

You are placing too much faith in how a bunch of calculations can predict water chemistry, especially with pH adjustments and CSI.

PoolMath gives you an idea of what will happen, but actual results do not always correspond to the tool.

There are areas where the designers purposely do not provide data that may not be accurate.

People put too much emphasis on calculations instead of actual tests and observations.
 
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People put too much emphasis on calculations instead of actual tests and observations.
I only illustrated the tool result to show that, in this case, it matches my experience that CSI and pH rise with rise in TA. But I agree with you, given the many variables, only empirical data tells the real and full story.
 
I guess this might get controversial, but I hope not. Before getting into it, a word of caution: If you decide there is merit to this and you therefore embark on a process to lower your TA levels, please be very careful to watch your pH and TA levels so that you avoid the risk of equipment damage, surface damage, and swimmer irritation. Keep your pH above 7.0! Also, I am by no means an expert, I’m not a chemist, I just stumbled on to this recently after years of wasting time and money.

.... On to the reason for the post, my goal being constructive to maybe save some time and expense for many of us --------------

Have you ever raised your Total Alkalinity (TA) to a value near the center of the” recommended range” (eg 70 or 80) – only to find yourself adding muriatic acid (MA) over subsequent weeks to keep the PH from rising too high and too too fast? I was repeating that cycle of adding TA then MA for many years until I recently learned that it’s totally unnecessary. Aside from wasting time and money on TA & MA, there are other symptoms. Do you have an SWG cell that gets some buildup of calcium on a regular basis? Other surfaces with calcium buildup? You may be able to avoid that too, just by allowing your TA level to drop to the low end of the “recommended range” of 50-90. Other users have reported zero calcium buildup in their SWG cell and zero need for adding acid. That startled me! Have you installed and maintained an acid injection system to counter the pH rise? My recent discovery has me questioning whether that too is necessary.

There is at least one important caveat: If you’re using trichlor pucks to chlorinate, your water will be naturally more acidic, or if your water is otherwise naturally acidic for any reason, you might need that middle to upper end of the recommended TA range and you must test regularly to ensure your pH does not get dangerously low. Low pH can be dangerous to equipment, surfaces and swimmers. The CDC says 7.0 to 7.8 here. TFP says 7.2 to 8.0 here.

More to the story: The purpose of having the correct Total Alkalinity level is well documented – in TFP and elsewhere - often stated this way: “to buffer against dramatic swings in PH”. While that’s true, I found a more complete definition. From Orendatech and other sources, a more precise definition reads: “Total Alkalinity only buffers against a reduction in pH”. As you dig around TFP and elsewhere on the internet, you’ll find plenty of tools and resources that imply the TA could or should be anywhere from 50-90, including the common quote stating “50-90, sometimes higher” or the “ideal range” stated as 60-80. It is said that some pool stores and other resources recommend that TA be as high as 120. I guess that sells of lot of alkalinity increaser and muriatic acid! Included in my recent discovery is that those ranges are not the range for any pool. Rather, if you want to stop chasing your tail by constantly adding TA-then-MA, you need to find the TA value that is appropriate for your pool. When you find the best TA value for your particular pool, you may find you can eliminate most of the TA-MA chemical add cycle. In the process, perhaps save on SWG cell replacement, acid injection equipment, etc.

There are two ways to summarize:
  1. One TFP user summarized it this way: “pH and TA management will be different for each pool, but I believe the simple approach is to manage pH and let TA settle where it wants - without totally ignoring it of course”. Credit to @AUSpool
  2. It’s worth reading more here – TA-Further Reading and notice the latter part of this paragraph I underlined: “Like pH, there is no “optimal” TA value - your optimal TA value is the value at which your pH is most stable (longest between acid additions). Typically, people find that a TA somewhere between 80-100ppm works well enough. However, if a pool experiences constant acid demand and the pH rises too quickly, TA can be safely lowered as far as 50 PPM to compensate for this. Despite what the “pool experts” will say, keeping your TA on the low end will not “rot out your equipment” or “destroy your plaster surfaces. “
Formerly while wallowing in my chemistry ignorance and not realizing that TA only buffers against pH reduction, I read those recommended ranges as “push it to 90 or higher, then let it float back down gradually while adding acid (each week) to manage pH”. Then, a month or two or three later I would check and add TA again, restarting the mad cycle. Since I only tested pH and added acid weekly, among the effects was that my pH was rising to 7.8 or higher each week before I treated again with acid. It is said that the high pH probably caused the calcium buildup in the SWG cell. Contributing to my regular pH rise is also the aeration from my spa spillover waterfall, and it is said that the SWG cell provides some aeration effect as well. And it does not escape me, now, that the addition of acid is what brings down the TA in the first place. Ugh.

Is there any other reason for keeping TA higher, aside from buffering against pH reduction? I suppose not, a lesson learned. Well, we also manage CSI/LSI, but that is naturally managed through the rest of the chemistry.

If you’re interested in more reading, most of this came to light, ironically, for me and other TFP users in responses to this thread I started in the salt/SWG forum Iron stain from pool salt - all or most salts have iron.. Since my owners manual for the Hayward Aquarite SWG recommends checking & cleaning every 3 months, and since the controller alerts me to check the cell every 3 months, it never occurred to me that the calcium buildup could be avoided. In that thread you’ll find at least one other user experiencing what I experience, and other users whose SWG cells remain clean and clear of calcium – and they almost never need to add acid. Proper TA level seems to be the cure.

Hope this helped someone!
 
I use the phone app so maybe different. If you open the CSI tab it’ll show the effect of changing any individual other parameter including TA. That’s what I use when estimating changes.
Thanks for the tip. In that regard (CSI), the phone app seems to match the online 'calc' version. All good.
 
There are two ways to summarize:
  1. One TFP user summarized it this way: “pH and TA management will be different for each pool, but I believe the simple approach is to manage pH and let TA settle where it wants - without totally ignoring it of course”. Credit to @AUSpool
  2. It’s worth reading more here – TA-Further Reading and notice the latter part of this paragraph I underlined: “Like pH, there is no “optimal” TA value - your optimal TA value is the value at which your pH is most stable (longest between acid additions). Typically, people find that a TA somewhere between 80-100ppm works well enough. However, if a pool experiences constant acid demand and the pH rises too quickly, TA can be safely lowered as far as 50 PPM to compensate for this. Despite what the “pool experts” will say, keeping your TA on the low end will not “rot out your equipment” or “destroy your plaster surfaces. “
Thank you, but I can’t take credit for that. I just regurgitated advice that several of our experts have offered on multiple occasions.

Running a TA on the low side to limit pH rise or purposefully reducing TA is nothing new.

Another aspect to consider is manipulating both pH and TA to maintain an ideal CSI through winter as the water cools down. I let my TA and pH ride a little higher through winter to offset a decrease in the CSI caused by a drop in the temperature.

In 15 years I have added bicarb to increase my TA maybe once and that was after unprecedented rain even. My tap water has a TA of around 70ppm so when I’m adding acid it’s to reduce pH and to keep my TA down. I have never targeted a low pH though. Those that attempt to maintain a low pH may find that they need to add bicarbonate and end up on the acid/bicarb merry-go-round.

I have on occasion reduced my TA by reducing pH from the 8’s to 7.0 a few times. Adding aeration will increase the rate of pH rise so the process can be done again sooner but I don’t bother. It’s just a simple fact that acid reduces both pH and carbonated alkalinity.
 
In case of confusion for anyone wondering why "I" delved back into the TA/MA thing at post #63 above, I didn't. I had posted #63 as a new thread in the testing and balancing forum but I guess a moderator thought it better to continue in this thread, so there it is above, with subsequent replies. My rationale for starting the new thread was twofold. It was titled "Raising Alkalinity Then Lowering PH - A troubling cycle". The twofold reasons: 1) Several of us noticed this thread had a split personality beyond iron staining; and 2) More importantly I was hoping for more visibility to the mad cycle of raising TA then adding acid would help more folks. Plus I included a link back to this thread.

But, as pointed out by a few users, the topic (TA-then-MA) does appear in other threads, for example here: Raise Alkalinity without raising PH levels. Based on that thread and some opinions that the topic is "well known", I'm thinking there may still be many of us stuck in that loop - for a variety of reasons, including owners manuals and the many places (even in TFP) implying TA of 90 or sometimes higher is okay. It can be, of course, depending. It's just my opinion that many could benefit if the topic and caveats/warnings were more prominent.

I'm a neophyte when it comes to managing forums - or even using them, LOL. But I can think of two other ways for moderators to handle such things, because I see it happen a lot where I'm notified of a response but I cannot find it. One way is to at least PM the poster that you had moved or removed the post, offering an explanation so we can avoid the problem in the future. Another way, perhaps better, is to remove the body of the post but also leave a link to where it was moved. Just a suggestion, and perhaps I'm not adequately appreciating the amount of effort it takes to moderate. Thank you mods for all your efforts!

1735648978744.png
 
I'm a neophyte when it comes to managing forums - or even using them, LOL.

You can edit your first post and modify the Subject Line to direct the focus of the thread in any way you desire.

Activity on the thread moves it to the top regardless of its age. The right subject line will get the attention you want while keeping all the background for anyone new dropping in.
 
It may be helpful to go back to the original analysis and check each products % of purity and if they provide it, a list of common impurities.
A good idea in theory, I wouldn't know how to begin reliably testing for purity. And, as others noted, the next batch could be totally different. I took another look at the bags since I still have them. Unfortunately all the ones I tested have very little information - about purity level, and near zero info about ingredients. Aquasalt has no info, but their web site says 99.9% pure and describes their process. Morton stated purity: "High". Clorox states "High Purity", and Clorox also notes "may contain other natural minerals". Diamond Crystal water softener pellets has no info but it does say "not for food consumption". Diamond crystal splash ready states 99.7% purity. Salinity stated purity: "High" and also states "with stain inhibitor". Have not yet picked up a bag of Diamond Crystal Solar Naturals :cool:
 
It is said that some pool stores and other resources recommend that TA be as high as 120. I guess that sells of lot of alkalinity increaser and muriatic acid!
120 (usually 80 to 120) is boiler plate industry advice, assuming heavy puck use. But. Change the equation by stopping puck use, and their advice should change accordingly, but doesn't. On one side of 'why' is ignorance. On the other side is boosted sales from doing it the hard way. Most stores fall somewhere between the two. Maybe a happy accident that the ignorance caused a boost in sales so they kept at it ? We'll never know for sure. After all, the pool store doesn't exist to efficiently get you a balanced pool. They exist to sell you a bunch of stuff to get you a balanced pool. The TA/Ph roller coaster is very profitable in that regard.
you need to find the TA value that is appropriate for your pool.
We reccomend for anyone learning to get the TA 'in range' and then simply manage the Ph. More often than not, the TA settles around 60 and the Ph becomes more stable.

New plaster pools will probably still have a healthy MA appetite the first year while the plaster cures. In those cases, they often need to raise the TA a little once it drops to 50 or less.

On top of everything else, newbs will often run their features / spill overs way too much, causing unnecessary Ph rise.
 

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A good idea in theory, I wouldn't know how to begin reliably testing for purity. And, as others noted, the next batch could be totally different. I took another look at the bags since I still have them. Unfortunately all the ones I tested have very little information - about purity level, and near zero info about ingredients. Aquasalt has no info, but their web site says 99.9% pure and describes their process. Morton stated purity: "High". Clorox states "High Purity", and Clorox also notes "may contain other natural minerals". Diamond Crystal water softener pellets has no info but it does say "not for food consumption". Diamond crystal splash ready states 99.7% purity. Salinity stated purity: "High" and also states "with stain inhibitor". Have not yet picked up a bag of Diamond Crystal Solar Naturals :cool:

I wasn’t suggesting to test for purity yourself but rather exactly what you’ve done, adding the manufactures supplied detail, or lack of, to your iron tests. The lack of info is just as important as they monitor the manufacture or extraction process very carefully and know exactly what is in the product. TFP recommends using a salt that is 99.8% pure.

I briefly looked at the manufacturers sites last week and took some basic notes.

Diamond Crystal Water Softener pellets: ~1.0 PPM (mg/L) iron. Slow dissolve - 99.8% typical, the pool salt is recommended for pools.

Diamond Crystal Splash Ready Pool Salt: ~0.5 to 0.75 PPM iron. Dissolves a lot like morton Over 99%, 99.6% given for Solar Naturals.

Clorox: ~0.5 PPM (mg/L) iron, maybe higher. Fast & easy to dissolve but clumps if stored for awhile. This is what stained my step surface when an inch of it was left on the surface for a couple hours. No specific purity given. Higher purity stated. Several bad reviews including stating events.

Morton Professional’s Choice Pool Salt: 0.2 ppm / just a trace of iron. A bit slow to dissolve. No specific purity given, high purity stated.

Salinity brand...... Just a trace of iron Couldn’t find any specific information.

Aquasalt: ZERO trace of iron. This would be the clear winner – except for the price. Typical analysis, 99.9% NaCl.

Given TFP’s 99.8% recommendation the Aquasalt would be the clear winner. Given the cost of staining remediation the cost would not be an issue for me. Consider it an investment. Clorox appears to be the worst choice.

All the manufacturers recomend to brush it in until dissolved. This suggests to me that they all know that there are, or there is a potential to be impurities that are known to cause staining.

The typical analysis of a 99.4% sea water dehydrated salt is given as;
IMG_7886.jpeg
 
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rather exactly what you’ve done, adding the manufactures supplied detail, or lack of, to your iron tests.
I figured that's what you meant, was just checking. And voila you did the work! Thanks Steve for re-summarizing to include the additional info. I added an edit to the OP pointing to your post #71.

I had this other thought or theory. Salinity & some of the Aquasalt bags reference or imply, in one way or another, the addition of stain fighters or "natural stain fighters". My theory (unprovable) is that it might just be a marketing ploy, in that they actually add nothing - but that "natural" stain fighting does happen naturally if the purity is high enough. Kinda like 20 Mule Team Borax probably had nothing to do with an actual mule team :)
 
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I had this other thought or theory. Salinity & some of the Aquasalt bags reference or imply, in one way or another, the addition of stain fighters or "natural stain fighters". My theory (unprovable) is that it might just be a marketing ploy, in that they actually add nothing - but that "natural" stain fighting does happen naturally if the purity is high enough. Kinda like 20 Mule Team Borax probably had nothing to do with an actual mule team :)
I was thinking the same, could be some abstract connection to sodium, chloride, or any of the remaining impurities, calcium or magnesium etc. having some metal attraction attributes.

The advertising for the fancy mineral salts talk about magnesium’s flocculant properties which has an element of truth above a pH of 10.1 which wont occur in a pool. They conveniently leave out the reality for the advertising. The mule team does have history. They used mules (teams of 20) to pull carts in the early days of production, before the motor car or trucks were invented.
 
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