GFCI with Pentair VS pumps

[P00LNerd]

I had so many nuisance trips with the Cutler Hammer CH GFCI breaker on my Pentair VS pump, that I had to temporarily swap it out for a regular CH220 breaker. It's a hardwired circuit, no receptacles, which historically did not require GFCI. But it's a new (2023) install, and I believe latest NEC code update requires that even dedicated hardwired pool pump circuits of 20 amps be GFCI, since 2019.

It seems that only Siemens breakers play well with the Pentair VS pumps, in fact Pentair is now selling relabeled Siemens QF220A's under their own name and number (PA220GF). But unfortunately neither make a load center that fits my panel space very well, for clean swap-out of the existing panel. I could add a single Siemens 0408 panel, just for the pool pump breaker, but this will also require some reconfiguration of the panel space.

Does anyone know of a hardwired or inline GFCI module, which is known to play well with these pumps? The most common ones are Hubbell, and they have units that could be mounted in an outdoor box much smaller and with more flexible placement than a load center, but I fear Hubbell's may have as many nuisance trips as my present Cutler Hammer's.

 

[Newdude]

The last I knew only the Siemens or the rebranded Pentair breaker had the higher (6?) milliamp trip rating. The Siemens was $30 cheaper until the shortages and since then they've flip flopped, I'm assuming, based on availability.

Maybe somebody else makes one now too.

The pump is recent right ? 1.5 years old or so ? I had the nuisance trips on my 2012 pump and by the time I learned what to do about it here, I didn't get around to it right away and then we were moving. At the new place I requested the QF220 and the electrician knew right away why when I said it. He said that Pentair had fixed the nuisance trips (a year or two before the 2022 build) and although his knowledge about it gave him some real credibility I put the QF220 in anyway.

There haven't been any reports on new pumps in a several years here so that was also pointing to the problem being solved.

What's the manufacturer date on the pump ? It might have been old stock when you got it, or we can prove it's still a thing.

 

[ajw22]

I have seen no reports of better breakers then the Siemens/Pentair for use with VS pumps.

Electrical GFCI - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[JamesW]

Is this what you have?

Can you replace the backboard?

Siemens PN Series 125 Amp 12-Space 24-Circuit Main Lug Plug-On Neutral Load Center Outdoor with Copper Bus PNW1224L1125C - The Home Depot

Update your commercial power distribution system with Siemens PN Series Main Lug PlugOn Neutral Load Center Outdoor with Copper Bus.

www.homedepot.com

 

[P00LNerd]

There haven't been any reports on new pumps in a several years here so that was also pointing to the problem being solved.

What's the manufacturer date on the pump ? It might have been old stock when you got it, or we can prove it's still a thing.

Dang... you may have just nailed it. Pump was purchased 1 year ago, delivered May/June 2023. But I just went out and checked, and there's a date sticker on the pump of 08/21/2021.

What is the date of this supposed fix? Does my pump fall before it? If so, the easiest solution may be to just replace or update the pump, as I'm really not liking the swap to a Siemens load center with everything already hard-plumbed in buried conduit to the CH load center.

I still need to pull the wiring out of the conduit, from load center to pump, just to verify it's not damaged. The fence installers damaged some of my other wiring, punching straight thru my conduit in a few locations. Some how they thought red paint and red "high voltage" flags were exactly where they were supposed to place a whole row of fence posts 26" deep.

 

[P00LNerd]

Is this what you have?

Can you replace the backboard?

Siemens PN Series 125 Amp 12-Space 24-Circuit Main Lug Plug-On Neutral Load Center Outdoor with Copper Bus PNW1224L1125C - The Home Depot

Update your commercial power distribution system with Siemens PN Series Main Lug PlugOn Neutral Load Center Outdoor with Copper Bus.

www.homedepot.com

View attachment 595353

Yep... good recall! What I'd love to do is just move that receptacle box to the back side, and stick the new RJ-45+ controller on the left hand of the panel board. Even if I have to make up a slightly larger panel.... no big deal. But I'd really like to avoid messing with the conduit and long runs from house, etc. That means, if I swap that CH panel to Siemens, I want to find a panel with similar bottom knockout configuration.

Another option is to just tag a small Siemens 0408 panel next to the CH, and stick only the pump circuit (and maybe receptacle) into that panel. I don't love having two breaker panels there side by side, but it could work. Just gotta leave room for that RJ-45+.

Of course, if I could find a hardwired GFCI module to just hang on the back of the board, which plays well with this pump, that'd be ideal.

 

[Newdude]

What is the date of this supposed fix?

The electrician said it had been fixed prior to our discussion in 6/22 but his time frame of a year or two may or may not been accurate. He also may have been misinformed altogether.

 

[JamesW]

Note Class A means that the ground fault is designed for personnel protection, which is 5 milliamps.

All Class A devices are 5 milliamps +/- 1 milliamp.

All Class A need to not trip below 4 milliamps and they must trip before exceeding 6 milliamps.

5 mA is the "Nominal" value.

The Siemens resists false tripping because it is shielded to prevent RF interference and not because it has a higher trip value.

PN Series 125 Amp 12-Space 24-Circuit Main Lug Plug-On Neutral Load Center Outdoor with Copper Bus

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Siemens-20-Amp-2-Pole-GFCI-Circuit-Breaker/5002785863

Siemens 20 Amp Double Pole Type QPF2 GFCI Circuit Breaker US2:QF220AP - The Home Depot

Prevent a ground fault in construction applications like spas, hot tubs, kitchens or bathrooms with this Siemens Double Pole Type QPF GFCI Circuit Breaker.

www.homedepot.com

Siemens QPF 20-amp 2-Pole GFCI Circuit Breaker
Item #604365 | Model #QF220AP

Siemens GFCI circuit breakers are UL Listed and CSA Certified as Class A devices.

These circuit breakers offer the new Self-Test and Lockout feature as required by UL 943, enabling the GFCI to automatically and continuously test itself to ensure that it is working properly.

If it is detected that the device has been compromised, the device trips itself and locks out the homeowner from resetting the device, reducing the possibility of the homeowner incorrectly assuming that the device was tripped to prevent a ground fault.

• Device intended for personnel protection from Ground Faults
• LED trip indicators to help identify fault conditions
• Autonomously and continuously tests itself for device malfunction
• Suitable for a variety of construction applications including spas, hot tubs, kitchens, bathrooms, etc
• Self-test and lockout feature enables the GFCI circuit breaker to automatically and continuously test itself to ensure that it is working properly as required by UL 948
• Resists false tripping (shielded to prevent RF interference)
• Class A (5 mA) ground fault protection
• White line neutral (pigtail) must be connected to the panel neutral for the device to function
• #14 - #8 AWG copper, #12 - #8 AWG aluminum wire range

GFCI’s
The definition of a ground-fault circuit interrupter is located in Article 100 of the NEC and is as follows: “A device intended for the protection of personnel that functions to de-energize a circuit or portion thereof within an established period of time when a current to ground exceeds the values established for a Class A device.”

Following this definition, an Informational Note provides additional information on what constitutes a Class A GFCI device.

It states that a Class A GFCI trips when the current to ground has a value in the range of 4 milliamps to 6 milliamps, and references UL 943, the Standard for Safety for Ground- Fault Circuit-Interrupters.

Understanding Ground Fault and Leakage Current Protection | UL Solutions Code Authorities

This article will help to understand ground fault and leakage protection and differentiate the various types of protective devices (including ground-fault circuit interrupters) used today and clarify their intended uses.

code-authorities.ul.com

 

[P00LNerd]

Note Class A means that the ground fault is designed for personnel protection, which is 5 milliamps.

All Class A devices are 5 milliamps +/- 1 milliamp.

All Class A need to not trip below 4 milliamps and they must trip before exceeding 6 milliamps.

5 mA is the "Nominal" value.

The Siemens resists false tripping because it is shielded to prevent RF interference and not because it has a higher trip value.

Yep, I knew this (I'm an EE), but wasn't going to bother pointing it out. The "6 mA" trip that so many refer to is just a misunderstanding of the spec.

If I recall, all Class-A must test to a standard which does not trip at 4 mA, and must trip at 6 mA, or put otherwise... they have a trip point of 5.0 ± 1.0 mA. These are commonly referred to by their nominal "5 mA" trip point.

This is common across all brands, but I do suppose it's possible that Siemens may also control their tolerances well enough to favor the upper end of the tolerance range.

 

[P00LNerd]

Here's one for you, JamesW. Do you think a mains filter placed between the breaker and pump might eliminate nuisance trips? If the problem is conducted immunity, that may resolve it.

 

[JamesW]

You can get a single breaker outdoor box for just the breaker.

Try to find a copper busbar assembly vs. an aluminum busbar assembly.




Main circuit breaker weatherproof enclosure consists of the enclosure for one breaker and cover suitable for service entrance or commercial disconnect.

Available in version 1 phase 1 or 2 poles 240vac 15/125A type eemac3R.

Made of cold rolled gauge steel finished with gray paint, they are certified listed CSA.

Features: Outdoor EEMAC 3R enclosure.

Accepts plug-in Q type breakers.

 

[JamesW]

Do you think a mains filter placed between the breaker and pump might eliminate nuisance trips? If the problem is conducted immunity, that may resolve it.

What filter are you thinking of using?

Do you have an oscilloscope to see the noise before and after the filter?

Will the filter interfere with the GFCI function?

 

[P00LNerd]

You can get a single breaker outdoor box for just the breaker.

Yep, that load center is the exact one sitting in my Amazon shopping cart right now, along with a QF220A breaker. Unfortunately, it's still a bit wider than the space available on the back of my panel.

I was hoping to resolve all of this real quick, before installing the new RJ-45+. But if I have to make up a new panel, I think I might as well just make it big enough to hold the Siemens 0816, and ditch the CH load center altogether. It'll likely mean digging and moving a little conduit, but I don't mind doing that after the pool has been shut down for the season. One box beats two!

What filter are you thinking of using?

No idea, but I know companies like Murrelektronik, Allen Bradley, Eaton, and several others make main and loads filters and suppressors. If the issue is conducted immunity, it seems like simply tagging one of those onto the load side of the breaker with the pump could go a long way to cleaning up the trouble.

Do you have an oscilloscope to see the noise before and after the filter?

Yes.

Will the filter interfere with the GFCI function?

Good question. I wouldn't think so, but I've never dug into how they're built. If you think about it, any mains filter has to have 60 Hz well into its pass band, so trip speed would still likely be better than 0.34 / 50 = 6 milliseconds, for any GFCI event. I've never dug into the specs on how fast GFCI *should* work, but suspect that if I dig, the NEC probably addresses placement of line filters after GFCI. They're quite common for use on motors and valve actuators, used a lot in commercial site wiring.

 

[P00LNerd]

BTW, when I talk about GFCI "modules", this is what I meant:


These can be just wired inline with the load, and take up almost no space on the panel board. Plumb to breaker panel with liquid tight conduit.

Only trouble with the unit shown, is that I don't know if it will nuisance trip as much as my present CH220GF breakers. Might even be worse! If Siemens made one of these, to the same standard as their QFP breakers, I'd have bought it already.

 

[P00LNerd]

Yep, that load center is the exact one sitting in my Amazon shopping cart right now, along with a QF220A breaker. Unfortunately, it's still a bit wider than the space available on the back of my panel.

I forgot to add one factor. Placing anything on back of my current mounting panel would be a non-compliant install, as it does not have the free space required for access. The distance between fence and panel would not actually inhibit use, but it would be a code violation.

 

[Newdude]

I was hoping to resolve all of this real quick, before installing the new RJ-45+. But if I have to make up a new panel, I think I might as well just make it big enough to hold the Siemens 0816, and ditch the CH load center altogether. It'll likely mean digging and moving a little conduit, but I don't mind doing that after the pool has been shut down for the season. One box beats two!

 

[P00LNerd]

Decision made:

1. I'm just going to plumb in the Dang RJ-45+, without GFCI for now. If it was legal my entire lifetime until 5 years ago, it can't be that terribly concerning.
2. I'll research what needs to be done to upgrade this pump to post-2022 electronics, or conversely, just replace the whole pump.
3. If that proves impractical or too expensive, I'll look at tearing out CH panel and replacing the whole thing with Siemens 0816.

Either way, I'm probably making a new mahogany mounting board, so I can have a better layout of load center + RJ-45+ + receptacle + possible timer. That can all wait until off-season.

 

[P00LNerd]

It appears I can replace the entire VFD/control panel on my pump, for $650'ish. If I knew this was a slam-dunk to resolve the issue, I'd do it. Anyone got the inside scoop on whether the nuisance tripping was tied to the VFD only, or something internal to the motor?

 

[JamesW]

I'm probably making a new mahogany mounting board

I noticed the wood was really nice.

Why mahogany?

 

[JamesW]

Anyone got the inside scoop on whether the nuisance tripping was tied to the VFD only, or something internal to the motor?

All VFDs create noise that can cause nuisance tripping.