GFCI overheating

[KyMama]

In my opinion, we know for sure that the breaker and wire are undersized from the manual specifications that say to use a 60 amp breaker and the breaker is only 50 amps and the wire is only rated to 55 amps.

Replacing the wire and breaker should be done for no cost by the original electrician because it is their mistake, but they might not be available and the customer might not want the incompetent person to come back to do any work.

I would have the new electrician redo the wiring and breaker and send the bill to the original electrician.

Replacing the wire and breaker might fix the problem but it might not if there is a different issue.

A competent electrician should be able to accurately diagnose the problem and recommend a proper solution.

The undersized breaker and wire is not the electrician's fault. They went off the information that was given by the authorized dealer. The hot tub was not on site when they did the work. And this is not a case of me misunderstanding what was required because we were given paperwork to show the electrician. Paperwork that we later found out was outdated when we contacted Viking. Like I previously said, the dealer sent their installers with the hot tub and they inspected everything from the main panel out and saw no problems. Ideally, the dealer would be responsible for replacement but they went out of business within a year of us buying the hot tub, which was upsetting because we went through them because they had been in business forever and their customer service was top notch.

Still waiting on the electrician to make it out here. They were scheduled up and are going to work me in between jobs.

 

[JamesW]

The 2007 manual says that the "Maximum" breaker for the Heritage is 60 amps, but it doesn't say that it cannot be smaller, which is confusing.

So, even the older information says 60 amps.

Do you have the paperwork that says to use a 50 amp breaker?

What year was the paperwork from?

In any case, it should be redone with a 60 amp breaker and larger wire, in my opinion.

Hopefully, the electrician will be qualified enough to accurately diagnose the problem and recommend a proper solution.

The minimum conductor ampacity for the 220-volt “Legacy & Heritage” is 47-amps.

The maximum over current protection device for the “Legacy I” is 50-amps.

The maximum over current protection device for the “Legacy II & Heritages” are 60 amps.

https://vikingspas.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/2007owners.pdf

https://vikingspas.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/2015englishownersfinal.pdf

 

[KyMama]

Yes, we have paperwork from the dealer that says 50 amp. We emailed copies of our paperwork to Viking and that is how we found out it was outdated. I have no idea what year the paperwork was from or it was even from Viking. It never crossed my mind to question the "experts".

The electrician will be here in the morning.

 

[bradgray]

I just want to propose a donate button for James' coffee/redbull supply.

I couldn't hardly process the data let alone supply it at the rate he did.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Brad,

I met a hologram of JamesW once, and I'm pretty sure he is not from this earth.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Methuselah]

This thread would make a good sticky...

 

[KyMama]

The electrician came today and he couldn't get a good read. He said they were "wonky readings". He went to pull the breaker out and it broke. One side looks like it had melted and was most likely arcing. He said is was probably just a bad breaker.

He installed a new spa panel, different brand because he didn't like the original brand. (We had everything installed during that time when you couldn't find anything in the stores. I know, poor timing.) He switched it out for another 50 amp so we could see what's going on first without a complete rewire. After install, we turned everything on - both jets on high, heater, ozone, lights - max draw was 38.4. So for now, we're gonna wait and see. It's been running for several hours heating from 88 degrees to 98 degrees the last time I checked. Hopefully, it was that simple and it's now fixed. Of course, I thought it was fixed the last time we changed breakers too, but maybe he's right and that brand has issues.

If anything changes, I'll be back.
Thank you!

 

[Methuselah]

Fingers crossed

 

[JamesW]

Ok, thanks for the update.

I hope that we (mostly me) didn't overwhelm you with too much information.

I know that it can be frustrating to feel like you are not getting any information and it's probably just as bad if you feel like you are getting way too much information.

Hopefully, the electrician didn't feel ambushed by all of the questions.

Maybe keep checking the two breakers to see how hot they are getting.

Hopefully, everything will work well from now on.

 

[Randrx2]

That’s great you got a fix!

 

[JamesW]

We did have the gfci breaker replaced early into the problem in case it was just a bad breaker.

It seems odd that you would get two bad breakers in a row, but the quality of many things seems to be going down, so it's possible.

Check the temperature of the breaker periodically to see if it is getting excessively hot, especially during long heating times.

Also, check the breaker in the main panel for reference and they should be close to the same temperature.

After install, we turned everything on - both jets on high, heater, ozone, lights - max draw was 38.4.

The number seems a little bit low for the specs on the tub from the manufacturer with a 5.5 KW heater (24 amps) and 12 hp in jet pumps (12 amps x 2 = 24 amps) for a total of 48 amps.

 

[KyMama]

Just got home and thought to check the hot tub before coming in the house and the breaker was tripped again. Looks like I'll be calling the electrician back and upgrading to a 60 amp.

We've used it several times since the replacement and it has been working great. Heating and operating normally without excessive heat in the spa panel. It's been running the cleaning cycles twice a day too. Hopefully, the 60 amp will solve the problem. If not, Viking is going to have to send someone out that will take the time to figure this out.

Thanks for all the help!

 

[JamesW]

Something odd is going on.

Here are the questions I would want to know the answers to.

1) What wire size from the outside breaker to the tub?

2) What is the amperage on both hot legs and the neutral when heating with no jet pumps and with heat and jet pumps?

The amperage on both hot legs should be close and the amperage on the neutral should be low and it should be the difference from one hot leg to the other hot leg.

3) What is the voltage at the tub with no load, with heater only and then with heater and both jets?

Measure hot to hot and from each hot to neutral.

For example, the no-load voltage might be 240 volts and the voltage under load might go down to 233 volts, which is a voltage drop of 7 volts, which is the maximum voltage drop to limit the voltage drop to less than 3%.

Note that the voltage will always go down some (voltage drop) when you add a load to the line. The larger the load, the higher the voltage drop. Excessive voltage drop points to a wiring issue.

4) Is there any sign of a ground fault?

6) Is there any reason that the breaker is being exposed to excessive heat?

7) What is the total amperage of all equipment from the equipment labels?

 

[KyMama]

I'll get your questions printed out and see if I can get them answered for you. It will probably be a few days before they can get back out here again.

 

[JamesW]

After install, we turned everything on - both jets on high, heater, ozone, lights - max draw was 38.4.

38.4 amps is 76.8% of 50 amps, so that should not be overloading the breaker.

Maybe that was not the full load?

Based on the tub specs, the amperage is at least 48 amps (24 for the heating element and 24 for the pumps) and probably slightly higher with everything on.

Maybe there is a ground fault or some other issue not related to overloading?

Maybe a short circuit?

If there is some sort of intermittent path between the two hot legs, that can cause overloading and a thermal trip or a magnetic trip if the amperage spikes high enough.

If the path is not connected to ground, then it won't show on a ground fault test and it won't trip the GFCI.

Maybe a bad contactor/relay.

Maybe a defective circuit board?

Check the relays and circuit board for signs of damage like burn marks.

Something strange is going on and it seems like the "professionals" don't want to do much more than try a new breaker and tell you to "Keep an eye on it".

Maybe a motor, heater element or other device has weak insulation and it is right on the border of tripping the GFCI due to current leakage.

There are special meters that can test for weak or damaged insulation in motors and things.

Maybe new 60 amp wire and a 60 amp breaker will do it, but it seems like maybe there is something more going on.

 

[JamesW]

Normal tests for continuity to ground use a low voltage, which means that their ability to find ground faults is limited.

They can find low impedance leaks, but they can miss high impedance/high voltage leaks.

The motor uses 230 volts, and that can leak at a weak spot where the leak would not happen with a low multimeter voltage.

The leak might be in a motor, heating element or some other component.

The only way to find that type of leak is to use a meter commonly called a Megger (Megohmmeter), which uses a voltage equal to or greater than the motor voltage to test for resistance, impedance or continuity.

Note: This test is only for qualified electricians due to the voltage involved as it is dangerous and it can damage electronics if not done correctly.

Because the tests are time consuming and require expertise, it is unlikely that an average service person is going to be ready, willing or able to do these types of advanced tests.

Insulation Tester vs Megohmmeter

What is the difference between an insulation tester and a megohmmeter? Compare insulation meters, testers, megohmmeters, and meggers to learn about what's best for your needs.

www.fluke.com

 

[KyMama]

We replaced the 50 amp because the other breaker was so badly damaged, wanted to make sure that it wasn't something simple before we dive further into it. We talked about upgrading to the 60 amp while he was here so that is our next step. If, after we go to 60 amp, it continues to trip the breaker then Viking is going to have to get someone out here because we are still under warranty. And they are going to have to plan accordingly to spend the time that's needed to get us up and running. I don't want to take a chance on them saying we've voided the warranty or anything.

Because I don't understand all the electrical stuff I just don't understand how it works for a week before tripping the breaker. Last night, it ran for several hours before I went back out to check it and it was running fine. I didn't use the thermometer but everything felt cool to cold to the touch so it's not overheating like it was before. And it's still working fine today. Now, if we were in it and had everything going and it tripped it would make sense to me. Thank goodness for professionals!

 

[Methuselah]

We replaced the 50 amp because the other breaker was so badly damaged, wanted to make sure that it wasn't something simple before we dive further into it. We talked about upgrading to the 60 amp while he was here so that is our next step. If, after we go to 60 amp, it continues to trip the breaker then Viking is going to have to get someone out here because we are still under warranty. And they are going to have to plan accordingly to spend the time that's needed to get us up and running. I don't want to take a chance on them saying we've voided the warranty or anything.

Because I don't understand all the electrical stuff I just don't understand how it works for a week before tripping the breaker. Last night, it ran for several hours before I went back out to check it and it was running fine. I didn't use the thermometer but everything felt cool to cold to the touch so it's not overheating like it was before. And it's still working fine today. Now, if we were in it and had everything going and it tripped it would make sense to me. Thank goodness for professionals!

You make a good point.

Every 5 minutes mine comes on, if temperature is ok, intervals increase until 15. So (likely) every 15 minutes it turns itself on and checks the temperature, heat thereafter if needed.

One would think it's one pump, on low speed, no immediate heat, so minimal surge. This makes me think @JamesW's reluctance to consider a specific root cause both justified and prudent.

I would point the manufacturer's customer service department to this thread if you can get them interested. Something unusual may be involved.

 

[JamesW]

If you change the breaker to a 60 amp breaker, you also have to replace the wire.

You should make sure that the electrician has a Master License.

Anyone without a Master license is probably not going to be qualified to do the necessary tests to figure this out.

The last person probably didn't even have a Journeyman license.

The average person sent out barely knows how to use a multimeter much less diagnose complex problems.

Their only skill is replacing parts with no idea what's actually wrong.

 

[Methuselah]

If you change the breaker to a 60 amp breaker, you also have to replace the wire.

You should make sure that the electrician has a Master License.

Anyone without a Master license is probably not going to be qualified to do the necessary tests to figure this out.

The last person probably didn't even have a Journeyman license.

The average person sent out barely knows how to use a multimeter much less diagnose complex problems.

Their only skill is replacing parts with no idea what's actually wrong.

As an Engineering Technician I trained new in-circuit technicians. It went like this, "here's a multimeter", "no, you're holding it upside down". (Training over).