Water Temp Sensor location with Separate Pool & Spa Pumps

[wgillette]

I think I've found a snag in my setup with regards to water sensor location. I have two pumps - one for the pool and one for the spa. The water sensor is on the line from the pool pump to the filter. As I learned last night, this means when the spa is on, I don't get a current spa water temp. Is it possible to have more than 1 water temp sensor on a i8PS?

 

[ajw22]

No, you have two pumps.

One that switches your filter and heater between POOL mode and SPA mode and filters and heats the water.

The other pump is for your spa jets.

When using your pool you should put the system in SPA mode which will send filtered water through your SPA RETURN and measure the temperature.

You have a complex setup with manual valves and actuators that make it impossible to guess from the picture the way you have water flowing. Can you explain what is going on?

Which lines are your SPA RETURN and which are for your SPA JETS?

Can you label all the pipes going into your equipment pad?

 

[wgillette]

From right to left the pipes are:

• Pool main
• Pool skimmers (2)
• Spa main (into pool pump)
• Spa main (into spa pump)
• Pool bubblers
• Pool returns
• Spa return
• Spa jets

 

[ajw22]

So the pump with the temperature sensor puts water into the spa return.

The other pump puts water into the spa jets.

Are you using the spa and the spa jets without putting the system in SPA mode?

 

[wgillette]

No I'm using SPA mode. In SPA mode:

• spa pump turns on, pool pump turns off
• Intellivalve on the pool pump closes the spa main drain so all flow is going to the spa pump
• spa pump draws water from spa main drain
• Intellivalve on the returns closes off the spa return line
• Spa pump returns water though the jets (heated or not)

I am able to turn on the pool pump with another circuit to either continue to circulate the pool or turn on the bubblers. This was how the PB met the requirement of spa on and bubblers on at the same time.

 

[Poolbreh]

Your equipment is unorthodox. The jet pump should have its own main drain and return. The filter pump should handle all the heating for pool and spa. Can you give better pictures behind HP and all the plumbing closest to the heater.

 

[ajw22]

Unfortunately your builder did not follow the hard coded pool/spa logic that Pentair automation systems follow.

The systems are designed for either single body of water where a single pump, filter, and heater are moved between the pool and the spa using the actuators.

Or it can support dual bodies of water in which case you have two separate dedicated pumps, filter, and heaters for both the pool and the spa.

When you configure the automation you tell is if you have a single body of water or a dual body of water.

You are going to have difficulty making the IntelliCenter do all you want it to do.

 

[1poolman1]

No I'm using SPA mode. In SPA mode:

• spa pump turns on, pool pump turns off
• Intellivalve on the pool pump closes the spa main drain so all flow is going to the spa pump
• spa pump draws water from spa main drain
• Intellivalve on the returns closes off the spa return line
• Spa pump returns water though the jets (heated or not)

I am able to turn on the pool pump with another circuit to either continue to circulate the pool or turn on the bubblers. This was how the PB met the requirement of spa on and bubblers on at the same time.

It appears, with your configuration, there is no filtration when the spa is in use. Not the best practice.

 

[wgillette]

@Poolbreh Additional pictures attached. Let me know if additional views are needed.

The line in the back is the spa line - it has an Intellivalve to either for heater or heater bypass. After working with the automation for a week now, I'm beginning to think it's not necessary. I can't really think of a time when I would want the spa jets on, but not the spa heater.

The systems are designed for either single body of water where a single pump, filter, and heater are moved between the pool and the spa using the actuators.

Or it can support dual bodies of water in which case you have two separate dedicated pumps, filter, and heaters for both the pool and the spa.

Dual bodies of water with two sets of equipment is only available on the i10D, correct?

It appears, with your configuration, there is no filtration when the spa is in use. Not the best practice.

Correct, as set up now, no filtration in spa mode. When in POOL mode it draws and returns from the pool and spa - the Intellivalve is not completely closed. It might be worth noting that my spa is in the pool.

 

[ajw22]

Yup you need the i10D for dual bodies of water since you need two boards.

 

[wgillette]

<Sigh> I think I've come to a better understanding of how Pentair has designed their systems. Which if I had known pre-build, would have reset my expectations or maybe cost me a ton more money.

I had a goal of a "party mode" with pool bubblers (cool) and spa (heated) on at the same time. (Kids playing in the pool, adults hanging in the spa.) That does not appear to be possible with an ixPS system because even though it says PS - it's really P OR S - not P AND S. Pool and Spa running at the same time is only possible with a i10D and two sets of equipment (pumps, filters, heaters). Is this correct? If so, I feel a little dumb for missing it given all the time I spent on this site.

 

[generessler]

I feel a little dumb for missing it given all the time I spent on this site.

Don't feel bad. Pool automation is 90's tech, sometimes a good thing, but here not. I wonder if there is a workaround that uses an extra relay to turn the pool bubblers on when in spa mode. (I have a Jandy system where this might work. Don't know about yours.)

 

[ajw22]

It is not about a relay.

What you describe can be done with a dedicated water features pump with its own suction port in the pool feeding the bubblers and any other water features you want to run in the pool while in spa mode.

This had to be planned out before gunite so dedicated suction ports for each pump could be installed.

 

[Poolbreh]

Like Allen said unless the jet pump has its own dedicated suction, the second pump isn’t necessary. Find a way to divert to jets through an actuator off FP. Additional jet pump probably wasn’t considered at time of construction and was trying to be implemented later on. You have everything there, it just needs some plumbing work arounds.

 

[wgillette]

Thanks @Poolbreh and @ajw22. The second pump was part of the contract, so it was known before plumbing. Now I get to have a fun conversation with PB on why he didn't add the second spa drain. Everything else is there and is all home runs. I can think of three options:

1. Keep the "unorthodox" plumbing as it is now. This is a little complex and doesn't adhere to Pentair Pool best practices. Leads to overall system complexity and probably unknown issues later. (including a post from the person that buys this house 10 years from now saying "what the deck did the previous homeowner do?!" )
2. Have the PB replumb to Pentair best practice and the design of the i8PS. This means I'll have a second pump I don't need and I can't run the bubblers at the same time as the spa. There is no real change in the performance of the spa, as it's only using 1 pump now.
3. Upgrade and expand - change out to a i10D and two separate bodies. But that comes with the price tag of the i10D board, filter, Intelichlor, and probably second heater. All to keep the bubblers running and make use of a second pump? That's a little steep.

 

[ajw22]

Are these two pipes connected into one set of drains?

• Spa main (into pool pump)
• Spa main (into spa pump)

That is a major flaw in what your builder did.

In addition to not giving you a separate water feature drain from the pool and water feature pump.

Was the requirement for the bubbler to run while in SPA mode discussed during the design phase before plumbing and gunite?

Have the PB replumb to Pentair best practice and the design of the i8PS. This means I'll have a second pump I don't need and I can't run the bubblers at the same time as the spa. There is no real change in the performance of the spa, as it's only using 1 pump now.

If you set your valves so the filter/pump gives you a traditional SPA mode where the filter/pump will feed both the spa return and spa jets you can then use the other pump to run your bubbler while in spa mode.

Setup a valve in the main drain or one of the skimmers pipes that when you turn on the bubbler it changes the water flow to the second pump which feeds the bubbler.

Note that using the filter/pump to feed the spa return and spa jets will likely give you less spa jet pressure then what you have now because of running through the filter and the heaters.

 

[wgillette]

Are these two pipes connected into one set of drains?

• Spa main (into pool pump)
• Spa main (into spa pump)

That is a major flaw in what your builder did.

Yes, I only have one spa drain. After reviewing some of your comments in other threads (and even the Intellicenter install manual!) I see there should have been two spa drains. One for filter/chlorination and one for jets.

In addition to not giving you a separate water feature drain from the pool and water feature pump.

I wouldn't have added a 3rd pump just to handle the two bubblers. We decided early on due to other design constraints and feedback on the forum here, that we didn't want a lot of other water features (noise, pH challenges). The bubblers, when used, have been fine. I would have been fine if I would have understood earlier that the bubblers would only run with the pool.

Was the requirement for the bubbler to run while in SPA mode discussed during the design phase before plumbing and gunite?

Yes. This is obviously where the miscommunication as I thought the "second pump for the spa" would make this possible. The PB should have known that only one body of water would be active. He prefers to use ET, but I pushed him on this one to use Intellicenter for upgradeability and flexibility. Perhaps he thought the Intellicenter could do more.

If you set your valves so the filter/pump gives you a traditional SPA mode where the filter/pump will feed both the spa return and spa jets you can then use the other pump to run your bubbler while in spa mode.

This is a clever way to not waste the "extra" pump I have now. It will be overkill as it's a 3HP VSF, but at least I can dial in the flow for the height I want!

Note that using the filter/pump to feed the spa return and spa jets will likely give you less spa jet pressure then what you have now because of running through the filter and the heaters.

When I have SPA on now, I'm already running through the heater, so it will just be the additional loss through the filter.

 

[ajw22]

He prefers to use ET, but I pushed him on this one to use Intellicenter for upgradeability and flexibility.

ET and IntelliCenter pool/spa logic work exactly the same. In fact the same logic is followed by Jandy with the Aqualink and Hayward with the Prologic and Omni automation systems.

There is no excuse for any pool builder in this century not knowing the fundamentals of pool automation.

Perhaps he thought the Intellicenter could do more.

You are being overly kind.

When I have SPA on now, I'm already running through the heater, so it will just be the additional loss through the filter.

See how it works for you. I think with all of your valves and actuators trying the different spa mode will just take some setup in the IntelliCenter.

 

[wgillette]

See how it works for you. I think with all of your valves and actuators trying the different spa mode will just take some setup in the IntelliCenter.

Yep, I think I can even do it now. I think it might be as simple as moving the default SPA circuit from the spa pump to the pool pump and then tweaking a couple of the Intellivalves.

 

[Poolbreh]

Just wanted to clarify, it looks like the spa line and the jet line are T together and run using one line to spa drain. After looking at the picture you have a long spa drain with multiple ports. If he ran two lines, one for the spa FP suction, and one for the JP suction to the same drain, that should be fine. I assumed they were T together from the picture and thinking the drain was a smaller 1 port.