Minimum pump rpm to turn Pentair IntelliChlor flow light green

[bertschb]

My neighbor recently had his pool guy install a Pentair IntelliChlor IC40. He doesn't know much about salt water pools so he asked me for help. I told him I'm a brand new pool owner but I'd try to help based on what I've learned here at TFP over the past few months. He has two issues that I find curious:

1- His SWCG doesn't power on during the "Pool" circuit - only the "Cleaning" circuit.
My pool is set up so when my "Pool" circuit is activated, my SWCG runs. I thought all pools were set up this way. His runs from the "Cleaning" circuit. It seems better to me to run the SWCG on the Pool circuit since that is typically set at a lower rpm for longer time. Thoughts?

2- His pump has to run at about 2,300rpm before his flow light turns green.
This one really has me stumped. His red flow light was lit even when the pump was running pretty fast. It turns out he needs to have his pump running at a minimum of 2,300rpm before his flow light turns green. I tested mine this morning and mine turns green at about 820rpm! I know rpm doesn't mean much and GPH is a better indicator so I started looking at his plumbing to see if he had valves set to divert water prior to running through his cell. We closed the valves to his DeckChlor, QuikSkim and vacuum cleaner in an effort to improve flow through his SWCG. Even after doing that, his red flow light stays lit until we get to 2,200-2,300rpm. Do you guys think he actually has a low flow problem or could the flow sensor be bad in his brand new SWCG?

 

[markayash]

Can you get pictures on how it was installed?

 

[Jimrahbe]

Bert,

We need pics...

I doubt the flow switch is bad... could be, but many have to run their pumps at 1800 or above to get a SWCG to work. It has to do with how much flow is actually going through the cell. If he is sending water to the cell and at the same time sending water to bubblers or waterfalls etc, it will take a lot more RPM to turn the cell on.

Could also be as simple as a dirty filter...

Is this a Pentair cell? If so do you know the model?

Does your neighbor have an IntelliFlo VS pump or a SuperFlo VS?

Older IntelliFlo pumps, like mine, don't move as much water at low RPMs as the newer IntelliFlo pumps.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

The flow switch closes at around 15GPM. If he’s only getting 15GPM at 2300RPM, he has a serious hydraulic problem …

 

[bertschb]

To answer some questions...
- It's a 2 week old Pentair IntelliChlor IC40
- He has a VS Pentair pump but I don't know the model number. The house is 5 years old so the pump is probably 4 years old max.
- I'll get pics later when I'm over there next time but IIRC, the SWCG is installed after all the diversion valves for DeckChlor, aerator, QukSkim, etc.
- Filter pressure was about 20psi when the pump was running at around 3,000/3,200rpm IIRC. He cleaned the cartridge filter a couple months ago and I recall looking at the filter pressure and thinking it was fine for the rpm the pump was running at.

As I mentioned in my original post, we closed all the obvious valves that would divert water and lower the flow rate through the cell. He does have a much more complex pool than I do but again, we tried to make sure no other water was being diverted. Spa was off. Suction cleaner was off. Swim jets (2 separate pumps for that) were off. Aerator, QuikSkim and DeckChlor were off. He has a UV system that he is now bypassing. It's just weird that my SWCG will operate at 820rpm and his requires 2,300rpm. I know there are a lot of variables and we're talking rpm rather than gph but still, that's a huge spread. Is there any easy way to see GPH? I think you have to disconnect the pump from his EasyTouch automation in order to look at GPH from the pump display - correct?

Any thoughts on why his cell runs on the Cleaner circuit rather than Pool? When you install the cell, do you wire to a specific circuit (e.g. Pool or Cleaner)?

I'll post pics as soon as I can.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Bert,

It makes no sense that the SWCG only runs off of the cleaner circuit. In fact, in theory, the cell should only work if in the Pool mode or Spa mode. If one of those circuits is not on, then the cell should not even be getting any AC power.

No way to tell what is what, unless he is willing to share his programming. Does he have ScreenLogic??

Jim R.

 

[bertschb]

OK, I was going to experiment more with pump speeds and circuits on his pool but he's draining some water and has his equipment shut off.

Here are some pics. You can't see valve positions on most of the equipment because the valve handles have been removed so these pics may not help much. But, as I mentioned previously, we went through each valve one by one to shut off anything that would reduce flow to the SWCG. Swim jets were off, spa was off, Dec-Clor, Aerator, QuikSkim, Cleaner - all were off.

Here is his equipment schedule:

 

[Jimrahbe]

Brian,

The water come out of the pump and appears to go to two places.. Where is it going?

The IntelliFlo is installed where water flows down through the cell, but that is incorrect per the manual.

What I need to see is what "Circuit" is linked to what "Circuit Name".. The name can be anything As a reference I need to see the following info..

Set up page 2.JPG

• Jimrahbe
• Jun 8, 2020

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[bertschb]

The water come out of the pump and appears to go to two places.. Where is it going?

The other pipe from the pump is a drain.


I'll see if I can get the circuit names tomorrow. I will also review the IC40 installation manual to see what they say about vertical installations.

BTW, I'm not sure why all the valve handles have been removed. He grabbed a handle that was removed and placed them on each valve so we could see which position they were in while we were trying to maximize water flow through the cell.

Thanks!

 

[JoyfulNoise]

The SWG is incorrectly installed. Installing it that way potentially could cause the flow switch to close with low or no flow and hydrogen gas could build up in the pipes causing an explosion.

 

[bertschb]

The IntelliFlo is installed where water flows down through the cell, but that is incorrect per the manual.

I reviewed the installation manual and it says these two things:

- For best flow sensing, provide at least 12"-18" of straight pipe in front of the cell inlet
- Mount the cell vertically

He clearly doesn't have 12"-18" of straight pipe in front of the cell inlet. Is that what you're referring to about an incorrect installation?

I've noticed many people have their cells mounted horizontally (including mine). I had no idea that was incorrect. What is the problem with a horizontal installation? Mine seems to work fine.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

No, there isn’t 12” of straight pipe in front of the cell. There is a 90deg elbow. That can cause turbulent flow in the cell which can cause the flow switch to not activate.

The cell was not properly installed. It needs to be fixed. Then the flow issues can be figured out … my bet is when the cell is currently installed, it will start working.

 

[Flying Tivo]

If the equipment is not running i would inspect the cell for blockage, the sensor could be twisted. If you can take a picture would be best.

 

[Turbo1Ton]

He clearly doesn't have 12"-18" of straight pipe in front of the cell inlet. Is that what you're referring to about an incorrect installation?

No, the flow through a vertical oriented cell needs to be vertical up, so that the flow switch cannot fail closed and cause a buildup of hydrogen gas which can cause an explosion.

I've noticed many people have their cells mounted horizontally (including mine). I had no idea that was incorrect. What is the problem with a horizontal installation? Mine seems to work fine.

Horizontal installation is fine. Mine and many others are installed in the horizontal and there are no issues.

From the photos you attached, it appears that the spa returns valve is partially opened up. That would be splitting the water flow between the pool and spa, which could cause the high rpm in order to activate the flow switch.

It's really unfortunate that this installer was lazy and did not install this correctly, or in the proper location. The SWCG should have been installed just after the heater and before it splits off to everything else. But that would have taken some piping rework and thought.

At a minimum, the installation needs to be corrected for a vertical up flow orientation. Ideally it is completely reworked so that all flow gets chlorinated before being sent off to other devices.

--Jeff

 

[bertschb]

It's really unfortunate that this installer was lazy and did not install this correctly, or in the proper location. The SWCG should have been installed just after the heater and before it splits off to everything else. But that would have taken some piping rework and thought.

At a minimum, the installation needs to be corrected for a vertical up flow orientation.

Thanks for the feedback Jeff.

This whole thing started when his original UV device failed. His pool guy said he could either repair it or replace it with a SWCG. This is why the install isn't in the optimal location. The SWCG was added after the pool was built.

At this point, I'm not sure how he could change the installation to get a vertical up flow of water through the cell.

 

[markayash]

Thanks for the feedback Jeff.

This whole thing started when his original UV device failed. His pool guy said he could either repair it or replace it with a SWCG. This is why the install isn't in the optimal location. The SWCG was added after the pool was built.

At this point, I'm not sure how he could change the installation to get a vertical up flow of water through the cell.

I don’t know how handy you guys are with PVC but since the wiring is in place may want to redo it. Just a thought. PVC is cheap

 

[Turbo1Ton]

At this point, I'm not sure how he could change the installation to get a vertical up flow of water through the cell.

If this were my pool, I'd be looking at removing the UV, and rebuilding the header coming out of the filter to accommodate the SWCG taking the full flow out of the heater/heater bypass, and then back into the header where everything returns. It is not necessarily a simple little project. I've attached a horrendous markup here. Basically chop off all of what's there. Come out of the filter, to the heater supply line, put the 3 way bypass valve there. Then coming out of the valve/heater return line, turn back towards the wall, and install the SWCG in the horizontal in that space where the UV is currently. Then come out of the SWCG, and angle up to pickup the returns header at the location of that 45 elbow (would likely remove that 45 elbow). Something along these lines. Or you could install the SWCG vertically there to reach the returns header.

The other scenario would be to leave it at the end of the line, but rework the piping so that you elbow down between the dek chlor and pool returns, run back towards the wall, elbow over to run parallel to the wall, then elbow to where it brings it forward. Then you have your vertical up for the SWCG, and elbow over the top down into the pool return line. See horrendous markup #2. This orientation is not ideal, as the only thing that gets chlorinated water is the pool returns. Spa, quick skim, etc do not get chlorinated water sent directly to them.

Again, there may be other ways, but these are what my brain saw first so I'm having a hard time envisioning another routing method. Like I said, doing it correctly required some thought and piping rework.

--Jeff

 

[bertschb]

Thanks for that detailed explanation and the examples Jeff. I told my neighbor that his SWCG was not installed correctly and could be dangerous. He's pretty overwhelmed right now because his pool water is (was) way out of balance and he's really upset with his pool guy after learning his cell wasn't installed properly. I looked at his plumbing a little closer yesterday and told him he could move his filter to the right (away from the other plumbing) about 24" and install the cell on the line coming out of the filter and remove the UV setup at the same time. You'd have to modify several other pipes to do that but it isn't difficult work. I've done a lot of sprinkler systems and PVC pipe is super easy to work with. This kind of freaked him out. He drained all his water yesterday and refilled. I've been working with him this morning to get his chlorine, salt, CYA, etc where it should be (they were way out of whack from his pool guy doing what pool guys do). I think once his water is properly balanced and his blood pressure drops a bit I'll bring up re-plumbing his cell again.

 

[markayash]

Thanks for that detailed explanation and the examples Jeff. I told my neighbor that his SWCG was not installed correctly and could be dangerous. He's pretty overwhelmed right now because his pool water is (was) way out of balance and he's really upset with his pool guy after learning his cell wasn't installed properly. I looked at his plumbing a little closer yesterday and told him he could move his filter to the right (away from the other plumbing) about 24" and install the cell on the line coming out of the filter and remove the UV setup at the same time. You'd have to modify several other pipes to do that but it isn't difficult work. I've done a lot of sprinkler systems and PVC pipe is super easy to work with. This kind of freaked him out. He drained all his water yesterday and refilled. I've been working with him this morning to get his chlorine, salt, CYA, etc where it should be (they were way out of whack from his pool guy doing what pool guys do). I think once his water is properly balanced and his blood pressure drops a bit I'll bring up re-plumbing his cell again.

He is lucky to have a good neighbor, once y’all are done you will be his new best friend

 

[bertschb]

He is lucky to have a good neighbor, once y’all are done you will be his new best friend

Hah! The irony is I'm a new pool owner and a total rookie. He has owned pools for 15 years but has always had pool guys service his pool. I've told him I'm a newb and everything I know about pools I've learned in just the last five months here on TFP. He still thinks I'm a pool whisperer.

He needs to add some more conditioner but once he does that, his water will be balanced - probably for the first time since he's owned the pool. The nice thing is he has two swim jets with two dedicated pumps so mixing chemicals is quick and easy. I thought my IFCS mixed chemicals good but man, that jet swim system really moves the water.