Thoughts on waterfall wall, spa height, spillover placement, pumps

[ajw22]

ice.1) It was suggested by a TFP regular that we should have a pump for the waterfall wall, a pump for the pool, and a pump for the spa. My pool guy really believes we only need a single 2.7hp pump for the pool and spa (and yes, a separate pump for the waterfall wall). The logic is that the pump will only be servicing either the spa or the pool at the same time. When we are in the spa, it will be servicing the spa (if there are people also in the pool, it doesn't need to really service the pool, servicing the pool can wait). When we finish with the spa and switch it to pool mode, it can just service the pool again.

The pool pump must run through the filter and heater. They both restrict the maximum flow you can get from the pump compared to a spa jet pump that is unrestricted and not running through a filter and heater.

It is all about what you will feel is adequate pressure out of the spa jets. You will get more flow and pressure from a dedicated spa jet pump then from a pool pump running through the filter and heater.

The only thing I can think of is, but what if you need the pool to stay warm...people are in the hot tub and the pool folks will start to slowly get colder since the pump is servicing the hot tub and not the pool at the moment. But how fast will a warm pool lose temperature as other people spend time in the hot tub - and do I need a third pump simply for that reason?

No, not for that reason. Even if you have a third pump you only have one heater which can only heat the pool or spa.

The pool will lose temperature slowly once you have it up to temperature. It is a big heat sink.

With three pumps when using your spa you will have the pool pump sending heated water to the spa through two spa returns while the spa jet pump sends higher pressure water to the spa jets.

What am I not thinking through here?

What GPM flow will be adequate for your spa jets?

How many jets will you have in your spa?

What is the maximum flow rate you can get from a pump through the filter and heater?

What is the maximum flow rate a dedicated spa jet pump can give?

Divide those flow rates by the number of jets to get the Flow rate from each jet.

Typically people are looking for 12-15 GPM flows from spa jets for good massage pressure.

2) Here's a diagram of the therapy jet layout of an 8' by 8' recessed spa we want. The triangle in the bottom left is the step we are adding to help people get into the hot tub without having to step down 18 inches to the bench. h means high-height jet at around 12 inches from the bench. m means medium-height jet at around 9 inches from the bench, and l means low-height jet, at 6 inches from the bench. What do you think?

I think it is overly complicated and not sure how you envision people using it.

3) TPF regulars suggested a larger cartridge, 400-500sq feet. My guy says they can do the Jandy CV 460 but says it has four or five cartridges that you are cleaning out, not one. So I'm basically increasing my workload by getting a larger cartridge. One of us is confused. Actually, I am definitely confused and he may be too. Please help!

What help do you need?

What is the problem with cleaning four cartridges in a batch once or twice a year?

4) I have heard the iAqualink RSP8 doesn't require a new motherboard for firmware updates (a TFP regular said I would need a new board...and for that reason go with Pentair or Hayward. If I'm right, I shouldn't be deterred from getting the Jandy system here...thoughts? I can always call Jandy to confirm.

Yes, that is what I said in an earlier post. I can ask @PoolGate to confirm.

That is not reason not to go with Jandy, just be aware of what you are getting and its limitations.

5) I've been told three returns will be sufficient, I don't need four, even though I've read if I have a rectangular pool it may be best to have a return on all four sides. Should I insist on four?

Really does not matter. You will see no operational difference in your pool with 3 or 4 returns.

6) According to the pool guy, I will have one skimmer, but if I want another, it's another $500 (which of course I don't mind if we want to insist)...but here's the thing - we will have a screened cage over the pool for sure. So, that will drastically cut down on debris.

Get 2 skimmers. If your one skimmer has a problem your whole pool is down. With two skimmers and one has a problem the pool will run fine on one.

In addition if someone stands in front of your one skimmer and blocks it your pump will run dry. With two skimmers and one is blocked for whatever reason the pump continues to run fine.

Getting one skimmer is false economy considering what you are spending on the pool.

 

[cjeducator]

Sure, Kim! I will take and post pics of my backyard - which is small. This pool is going to take up the entire backyard because many houses down here in South Florida are built so close together. Thanks for caring!

Hi Kim,
I took a pic of my backyard from the second floor to give you an idea of where the pool will go. Our backyards down here in South Florida are super small as houses are close together. It will take up my entire backyard. We should have enough deck space for entertaining, though. I'm grateful for all of the input I've received on this board, it has really helped us move forward. I will update you all as we make progress!

 

[cjeducator]

The pool pump must run through the filter and heater. They both restrict the maximum flow you can get from the pump compared to a spa jet pump that is unrestricted and not running through a filter and heater.

It is all about what you will feel is adequate pressure out of the spa jets. You will get more flow and pressure from a dedicated spa jet pump then from a pool pump running through the filter and heater.



No, not for that reason. Even if you have a third pump you only have one heater which can only heat the pool or spa.

The pool will lose temperature slowly once you have it up to temperature. It is a big heat sink.

With three pumps when using your spa you will have the pool pump sending heated water to the spa through two spa returns while the spa jet pump sends higher pressure water to the spa jets.



What GPM flow will be adequate for your spa jets?

How many jets will you have in your spa?

What is the maximum flow rate you can get from a pump through the filter and heater?

What is the maximum flow rate a dedicated spa jet pump can give?

Divide those flow rates by the number of jets to get the Flow rate from each jet.

Typically people are looking for 12-15 GPM flows from spa jets for good massage pressure.




I think it is overly complicated and not sure how you envision people using it.



What help do you need?

What is the problem with cleaning four cartridges in a batch once or twice a year?



Yes, that is what I said in an earlier post. I can ask @PoolGate to confirm.

That is not reason not to go with Jandy, just be aware of what you are getting and its limitations.



Really does not matter. You will see no operational difference in your pool with 3 or 4 returns.



Get 2 skimmers. If your one skimmer has a problem your whole pool is down. With two skimmers and one has a problem the pool will run fine on one.

In addition if someone stands in front of your one skimmer and blocks it your pump will run dry. With two skimmers and one is blocked for whatever reason the pump continues to run fine.

Getting one skimmer is false economy considering what you are spending on the pool.

Thanks again, ajw22 - and apologies for the delayed reply. What you've shared really helps me. We are definitely getting three pumps thanks to you - one for the pool, one for the spa (which is 8' by 8') and one for the 24" high waterfall wall (that extends 33 feet, the length of the pool). I've thought through and applied the rest of the wisdom you shared and I will keep y'all updated on this project as we move forward. My gratitude for your time and input; you have other things to do but your words helped a lot (along with those of other regulars here).

 

[ajw22]

Have some detailed discussions with your builder on how the suctions and returns for each of the 3 pumps will be designed and installed. Get it in writing and share it here preferably before contracting or before construction begins. There are good and not so good ways builder do things.

 

[cjeducator]

Have some detailed discussions with your builder on how the suctions and returns for each of the 3 pumps will be designed and installed. Get it in writing and share it here preferably before contracting or before construction begins. There are good and not so good ways builder do things.

I will absolutely do so; I imagine I'd have to talk to the engineers and not the sales people - but will do so. Appreciate it, ajw22!

 

[ajw22]

I will absolutely do so; I imagine I'd have to talk to the engineers and not the sales people - but will do so. Appreciate it, ajw22!

I would verify EVERYTHING a pool sales person says.

 

[kimkats]

That is going to be a great yard for the pool once you take some of those trees down. How many will be coming down?

Kim

 

[cjeducator]

Hi folks,

We signed our contract and are moving forward. We are building a 33' by 17' pool, with depths from 3'6" to 5'6". I can still make various changes with no additional costs so I still want to try to understand and talk about a couple of sticking points about size and features of pumps that I just don't understand. @ajw22, you've been really helpful - and I appreciate your input thus far. I welcome yours and anyone else's!

The advice I've received overall is to have a separate pump for the water feature (a 33' long waterfall wall with one centered four-foot-wide sheer descent waterfall, and two two-foot-wide sheer descent waterfalls on either side. This will also require a second main drain, just FYI (from what I'm told).

For this, we are quoted a JANDY 2.7 HP FLO-PRO WATER FEATURE PUMP.

Obviously we don't need/want a variable speed one for this because it's a constantly running water feature (right?).

For the pool (33' by 17') we have been quoted a JANDY 2.7 HP ENERGY SAVING VARIABLE SPEED PUMP (8 SPD).

Finally, for the spa (7' by 7') we have been quoted a JANDY 1.65 HP VARIABLE SPEED PUMP.

The pool pump and the spa pump differ in price by around 200 dollars. I feel we should just bump up the spa pump 1.65hp to the same size/features as the pool pump (which is 2.7hp). This makes sense, right? I dunno why they just didn't do this logically, but perhaps they have their reasons. And this may seem like a silly question, but perhaps I am just missing something.

Thank you!
CJ

 

[cjeducator]

Hi folks,

Background: we are building a 33' by 17' pool, with depths from 3'6" to 5'6". We also plan to have a water feature (a 33' long waterfall wall with one centered four-foot-wide sheer descent waterfall, and two two-foot-wide sheer descent waterfalls on either side). I have learned a lot from these forums and from the regulars here - thank you!

I have no experience with cartridge filters (frankly, any filters except AC and refrigerator and car filters). I'm being quoted two cartridge filters, a Jandy CS 150 and a Jandy CS 250. The latter is for the waterfall wall, to prevent any gunk from clogging up the waterfalls.

People on this forum have said I should just get bigger filters (e.g., Jandy 460 or Jandy 580). But I don't understand why, given the size of my pool (I used an online calculator to figure out the gallons of water that will fill it, and then read through what was recommended for that amount). But were the recommenders here on TFP suggesting bigger filters doing so because they provide an increased GPM of pump optimal flow rate which is best for the pool because of all of the water it is pushing into the pool?

Again, I really do want to *understand* this, I don't want to just say "hey pool builder, please give me this based on advice I am receiving" without understanding the whys of it.

Thank you for your time and patience with me as I learn!
CJ

 

[ajw22]

Only reason to get a larger filter is you will need to clean it less often then a small filter.

As the filter gets dirty it will get harder for water to flow through it and your GPM flow will drop at the same RPM. If you have a VS pump you can increase the RPM to offset that. A larger filter will get less dirty in the same time and take much longer to slow the flow.

Should you get an algae problem then algae can clog a small filter in hours. The filter clogging rapidly can create problems in getting the algae cleared and pool filtered as the filter keeps on clogging and needing to be cleaned. A large filter can handle that situation must better and run a lot longer without needing cleaning.

 

[cjeducator]

Hi friends,
Just wanted to get some input about the reality of pool equipment noise. We are still in the permitting process, by the way, and we expect a dig date in late fall. Anyway, our pool equipment will involve a gas heater, three 2.7HP pumps (one each to service the spa, pool, and water feature), and whatever else that goes with pool equipment. I'm trying to figure out placement of this stuff along the side of the house. Closer to the pool means higher pressure, as distance away from the pool will increase the amount of piping the water has to go through. But if all of this stuff is outside of the wall of my family room (which is basically how it looks to be), I don't want to hear the pumps (etc.) while we are chatting or watching a movie or hanging out in that room (where we always are). Plus, when we are in the pool, it will obviously be closer to us and so may be annoying (although perhaps the water feature (waterfalls - two two-foot linear descents that flank one four-foot linear descent) sound will always be louder).
I could move all of the equipment farther up that wall (to near the front of the house, but still on the side), but then I worry about losing pressure....
It also may be I am overthinking this. I've also seen some sort of pool equipment enclosure boxes that you can put all of the equipment into (or under) to decrease sound.
<sigh>
I welcome your input!
CJ

 

[ajw22]

Closer to the pool goes not mean higher pressure.

What distances are we talking about?

Using larger PVC sizes will offset any additional head from pipe length.

Put the equipment farther from the house and design your plumbing to work with it.

 

[kimkats]

This ^^^^ and all of this!

 

[cjeducator]

Closer to the pool goes not mean higher pressure.

What distances are we talking about?

Using larger PVC sizes will offset any additional head from pipe length.

Put the equipment farther from the house and design your plumbing to work with it.

Close to the pool would be, say, 10 feet away from the water (as the crow flies...but it's around the corner of the house) and farther would be around 25 feet away.
Thank you. "Head" from pipe length means potential slowdown or drag? Appreciate you, ajw22!

 

[ajw22]

Anything less then 100 feet is not a far path from pool to equipment. Use 2” and 2 1/2” pipe from equipment to pool and 3” to spa.

Head is the measure of restriction pipes, valves, and equipment have to water flow.

 

[TampaKathy]

My PB originally wanted to put the equipment outside my master bedroom I guess b/c that's where the well bladder is and the side that the breaker box is on...but I am so glad I made him put it on the other side of the house (outside the kitchen) b/c I DO hear the equipment...it's not bad hearing it in the kitchen but it would have been annoying to hear at night outside the bedroom! So I recommend putting it outside whatever room will be the least annoying

 

[cjeducator]

Anything less then 100 feet is not a far path from pool to equipment. Use 2” and 2 1/2” pipe from equipment to pool and 3” to spa.

Head is the measure of restriction pipes, valves, and equipment have to water flow.

Hi ajw22 and others,

Just finalizing engineering plans (there has been a bit of back and forth) and I wanted to run something by all of you for the last time.

Background: we are building a 33' by 17' pool, with depths from 3'6" to 5'6". We also plan to have a water feature (a 33' long waterfall wall with one centered four-foot-wide sheer descent waterfall, and two two-foot-wide sheer descent waterfalls on either side).

Here's the issue: I had settled - with the input of some of you - on three 3.2kw pumps, one to serve the water feature, one to serve the hot tub (which has nine "premium package" jets), and one to serve the pool. One of the pool company owners is adamant that in his decades of experience, he has never done something like this and that two 3.2kw pumps are more than sufficient. He said the maximum output of all of the jets together in the hot tub is 180 gallons per minute, and that a 3.2kw pump puts outs 220 gallons per minute - and so it's counterproductive and doesn't make sense to him. He says one 3.2kw pump is sufficient for the water feature (waterfall wall) and another 3.2kw pump is more than sufficient for the pool AND the spa.

I am trying to do all I can to prevent regret and resentment in the future, and I assumed dropping another 2k for a third pump is comparatively nothing to ensure a great experience in the pool and in the hot tub. But maybe he is totally right and my inexperience with all of this (my first pool build ever, I'm learning as I go) is insisting on something totally not necessary or wise. If I am right, anything you can explain here in detail that I can explain to him to clarify my/our logic would be super, super helpful. With such a massive and expensive project, I'm just trying to do things right.
I appreciate each of you! ~CJ

 

[cjeducator]

My PB originally wanted to put the equipment outside my master bedroom I guess b/c that's where the well bladder is and the side that the breaker box is on...but I am so glad I made him put it on the other side of the house (outside the kitchen) b/c I DO hear the equipment...it's not bad hearing it in the kitchen but it would have been annoying to hear at night outside the bedroom! So I recommend putting it outside whatever room will be the least annoying

Thanks so much, Kathy!!!

 

[ajw22]

Here's the issue: I had settled - with the input of some of you - on three 3.2kw pumps, one to serve the water feature, one to serve the hot tub (which has nine "premium package" jets), and one to serve the pool. One of the pool company owners is adamant that in his decades of experience, he has never done something like this and that two 3.2kw pumps are more than sufficient. He said the maximum output of all of the jets together in the hot tub is 180 gallons per minute, and that a 3.2kw pump puts outs 220 gallons per minute - and so it's counterproductive and doesn't make sense to him. He says one 3.2kw pump is sufficient for the water feature (waterfall wall) and another 3.2kw pump is more than sufficient for the pool AND the spa.

First of all you should thank the pool company owner for his concern about your frivolous spending on the third pump. Then you should wonder why he is so "adamant" about the issue? The customer wants a third pump. What is the big deal?

Secondly that 3.2 HP pump will not push 220 GPM through a filter and heater to the spa jets. You will be lucky to get 100 GPM. The 220 GPM specification is theoretical for the pump alone with no restrictions. That is what you will have if you have a dedicated spa jet pump that is not going through a filter and heater.

My Pentair Intelliflo 011056 VSF pump maxes out at about 75 GPM through my filter and MasterTemp heater. I have a separate 2 HP spa jet pump for my 8 spa jets.

So how do you handle it? I would thank him for his concern and say please do the three pump design as we discussed.

If you want to try the two pump design then I would insist on the plumbing be put in for a dedicated spa jet pump with second set of suction drains in the spa. And leave room on the equipment pad for the third pump. And separate plumbing for the spa jets and a spa return. Then put a flow meter on the spa plumbing.

Then ask the pool builder if the one pump does not pump at least 180 GPM to the spa jets he eats the cost of the third pump and hooking it up as originally designed.

Basically your pool builder is full of it, being a bully, and should give the customer what he wants.

 

[cjeducator]

First of all you should thank the pool company owner for his concern about your frivolous spending on the third pump. Then you should wonder why he is so "adamant" about the issue? The customer wants a third pump. What is the big deal?

Secondly that 3.2 HP pump will not push 220 GPM through a filter and heater to the spa jets. You will be lucky to get 100 GPM. The 220 GPM specification is theoretical for the pump alone with no restrictions. That is what you will have if you have a dedicated spa jet pump that is not going through a filter and heater.

My Pentair Intelliflo 011056 VSF pump maxes out at about 75 GPM through my filter and MasterTemp heater. I have a separate 2 HP spa jet pump for my 8 spa jets.

So how do you handle it? I would thank him for his concern and say please do the three pump design as we discussed.

If you want to try the two pump design then I would insist on the plumbing be put in for a dedicated spa jet pump with second set of suction drains in the spa. And leave room on the equipment pad for the third pump. And separate plumbing for the spa jets and a spa return. Then put a flow meter on the spa plumbing.

Then ask the pool builder if the one pump does not pump at least 180 GPM to the spa jets he eats the cost of the third pump and hooking it up as originally designed.

Basically your pool builder is full of it, being a bully, and should give the customer what he wants.

Thank you so much for responding, ajw22. They said they are more than happy to do what I like, but here is something that *just* clicked for me (clearly, I'm slow when it comes to pool engineering) which they reiterated (and forgive me, ajw22, for not yet grasping this):

If we have one singular 3.2kw pump to service the pool and the spa, when it's servicing the pool it's pushing through the filter and heater. But then when it's in "spa mode", all of the valves connected to the pool are CLOSED OFF and all of its work is now being directed to the spa. So, in this mode, it's servicing ONLY the spa and therefore is "dedicated" fully for the purpose. And again, it's still going through the filter and heater and having to deal with "head."

If we have a separate (second) 3.2kw pump bought and installed to only service the spa, dedicated fully to do so, it's still going through the filter and the heater and having to deal with "head." Having a separate pump does not avoid this or bypass this.

Whatever resultant GPM at the end-point of the spa would be the same.

What am I not understanding??!! AAHHH.

CJ