Greetings, switching to TFP method

[GreenLeaf]

Hi TFP!

I'm a technically minded Australian, who has never owned a pool before, but learned a lot in the last 2 months since I bought a house which came with a dilapidated pool (green water, leaking un-turnable filter draining the pool, pump that sounded like a jet airplane, non-functional SWG, roof solar a sprinkler system).

I loathe the smell, taste, itchy eyes and dry skin that I associate with Chlorine.

This has, perhaps understandably, lead me over the last few months along a path of seeking out and attempting to get a non-Chlorine based sanitization system working in my pool. I am well aware of TFP's position on non-Chlorine, and Cu in particular, and have read every thread on the topic on TFP at least once, most of them several times. Everything needed replacing (filter, pump, SWG, solar) so it seemed like a good time to go the whole hog and "do it right".

I have skimmed Chem Geek's posts, and look forward to studying them in detail in the near future.

Without going into detail, I have tried a copper based system, and even with all this new hardware in my case it hasn't worked out for me. I don't want to go into detail, but the business I bought it from is run by friendly, helpful people who are passionate about their product and not pushy at all, and has a no-questions-asked money-back guarantee, which I appreciated. However I'm a data and technology nerd and my concerns about the possible negative future aspects of the system and my objective observations on how the system has performed have lead me to decide this kind of system isn't for me. I appreciated the chance to see if it was right for me, it isn't, so I'm going to switch to a SWG system.

Where to from here? I will next be seeing if you guys have the magic bullet. All in with the TFP method (SWG, Taylor's, CYA 70, FC 5, BBB). But I would definitely like some advice on how I can try to get my pool feeling as close to fresh water as possible, while at the same time being pragmatic and being able to relax my brain that the pool is "under control". You can only try your best.

1. Pool type: Pebblecrete, 30+ years old
2. Pool size: 105,000 liters (Just shy of 28,000 gallons)
3. Filter: New 32" with new glass media
4. Pump: New 1.25hp variable speed

Other stuff:

1. I'm presently deciding whether I should keep the Auto PH doser that came with the system I have decided is not for me. It's working well, PH is being kept at 7.4, accuracy confirmed by PoolWerx testing.
2. I'm also deciding if I should keep the MMO-Ti based hydroxyl-radical generator oxidizer that came with the system. It seems to be working well, as in the water is clear. Perhaps it would help me run a lower FC than the TFP recommended 7%?
3. I bought a Pool eXact EZ Photometer. My testing shows it's not giving me PH results I can rely on that are within the advertised NSF-50 L1 PH specification of +- 0.2. Taylor's it is.

General goals:

1. As much automated as possible so I can go away for a fortnight without stressing too much. Auto PH / Acid Feeder, SWG with settable digital FC control, compatible with TFP CYA and FC levels.
2. Lowest salt possible, would like to keep salt un-tastable (Hayward S3 only needs 800ppm, but TFP says "go 200 above the ideal for the SWG")
3. Highest CYA while allowing SLAM without draining (ie: CYA 70), at least to start
4. SWG Automation to allow lowest Cl possible using TFP CYA/CL charts, maintain above hard min 4.5% of CYA (FC 3.15), target FC 5.0?

Next steps, I think...

1. Try to get a Taylor's 2006C plus Borates kit into Australia
2. Decide on a SWG available in Australia (Hayward Aquarite S3 operates from 800 ppm salt, would be great if salt was below taste threshold?)

I look forward to being a part of your community.

 

[mknauss]

I loathe the smell, taste, itchy eyes and dry skin that I associate with Chlorine.

Same here. And our pools have none of that, except the chlorine. Properly managed pool chemistry you will have no smell, no itchy eyes, and no dry skin. None of those things are from chlorine. The smell is not enough chlorine (Free Chlorine) and the other two are normally from mis-managed pH levels.

My salt levels are around 3000 ppm, and no one can honestly taste it.

Welcome to the forum!

I suggest you read ABC's of Pool Water Chemistry.

 

[GreenLeaf]

Thanks very much for the warm welcome!

 

[aussieta]

welcome to tfp
edit your signature as australia is a big place and some recommendations are area specific
this is where i buy my test kit

Taylor FAS DPD Test Kit Chlorine - SERVICE SIZE K-2006C

Taylor FAS DPD Test Kit Chlorine - SERVICE SIZE K-2006C, Pool Vac Parts stocks Taylor FAS DPD Service Size Test Kit Chlorine. Part Number: K-2006C

www.poolvacparts.com

another option is clear choice in brisbane

Kits – Clear Choice Labs

all "non chlorine" systems either still require smaller amounts of chlorine or are not sanitary
clear does not necessarily mean safe
swg is the way to go
most people find the taste of salt at 3000ppm to be the cutoff
not sure where you have seen 800ppm salt, the manual i downloaded lists 2700ppm to 3400ppm

https://hayward-pool-assets.com/assets/documents/pools/pdf/manuals/AquaRite-AQR-Operation-Installation.pdf

remember a swg is sized assuming running 24 hours per day at 100%
so check how many grams of chlorine gas per hour it produces vs the size of your pool, looks like you will need T15 cell

 

[Charlie Bezzina]

Fyi, my chlorine went up to 17 due to the cold weather snap we had recently and despite the high level there was NO chlorine smell. Not exaggerating.

 

[GreenLeaf]

edit your signature as australia is a big place and some recommendations are area specific

Done!

this is where i buy my test kit

Taylor FAS DPD Test Kit Chlorine - SERVICE SIZE K-2006C

Taylor FAS DPD Test Kit Chlorine - SERVICE SIZE K-2006C, Pool Vac Parts stocks Taylor FAS DPD Service Size Test Kit Chlorine. Part Number: K-2006C

www.poolvacparts.com

another option is clear choice in brisbane

Kits – Clear Choice Labs

Ta.

all "non chlorine" systems either still require smaller amounts of chlorine or are not sanitary
clear does not necessarily mean safe
swg is the way to go
most people find the taste of salt at 3000ppm to be the cutoff

Sweet.

not sure where you have seen 800ppm salt, the manual i downloaded lists 2700ppm to 3400ppm

https://hayward-pool-assets.com/assets/documents/pools/pdf/manuals/AquaRite-AQR-Operation-Installation.pdf

Here's where I saw the mention of 800 ppm:

AquaRite® S3 Salt Chlorination System | Hayward Residential and Commercial Pool Products

AquaRite S3 offers all the benefits of salt chlorination with built-in pool automation. Allowing you to easily manage the chlorine levels, a pump and a heater right from the display screen.

www.hayward-pool.com

remember a swg is sized assuming running 24 hours per day at 100%
so check how many grams of chlorine gas per hour it produces vs the size of your pool, looks like you will need T15 cell

With a 28K Gallon pool, and TFP's recommendation to get a salt cell 2x, I do feel it cuts my options down a bit if I have to find something rated for 56K. These S3's go up to 40k. Do I need to look for something bigger?

Regards your 24x7 comment - would a 40k Gal cell run for 70% of the time then I assume then be ok for 28K gal pool?

With the variable speed pump, I was planning on running it faster (2800 rpm) during the day (higher noise floor), and then right down during the night 11pm - 7AM (1000 rpm), to keep the water moving 24x7 and not annoy my neighbours. The new pump is 10x quieter than the last one, but I'll probably put it in some acoustic baffling.

 

[GreenLeaf]

Fyi, my chlorine went up to 17 due to the cold weather snap we had recently and despite the high level there was NO chlorine smell. Not exaggerating.

Thanks for letting me know. Interesting. Can I ask a few questions?

1. What CYA and FC are you rolling with?
2. I see in your sig you have ORP - do you set that to lock in a certain mV value and what is the relationship between ORP measurement and FC measurement, in particular as it relates to the TFP "high CYA" situation?
3. Why did the cold weather bump your FC (I assume by hurting your ORP, which the SWG then adjusted for)?

 

[aussieta]

AquaRite® S3 Salt Chlorination System | Hayward Residential and Commercial Pool Products

AquaRite S3 offers all the benefits of salt chlorination with built-in pool automation. Allowing you to easily manage the chlorine levels, a pump and a heater right from the display screen.

www.hayward-pool.com

if you check down the bottom manuals/owners, page 17 lists 2700-3400 salt
also lists different cell descriptions
that is a USA listing so who knows what Australia equivalent is
a variable speed pump can be turned down as low as possible but still allow swg to generate
and set high enough to skim leaves

 

[GreenLeaf]

Ah yes... page 18... thanks for the tip

The operating salt level is between 1200 PPM - 8000 PPM (parts per million) with 3200 PPM being optimal. If the water’s salt concentration decreases, the AquaRite S3 will continue to operate down to 800 PPM in an alarmed state before shutting down.

So yes it will "operate" at 800ppm but in an "alarmed state". Props to the marketing department for their impressive bullet point numbers on the flyer

Thanks re skim speed advice. The pump is very quiet < 1500.

 

[Charlie Bezzina]

Thanks for letting me know. Interesting. Can I ask a few questions?

1. What CYA and FC are you rolling with?
2. I see in your sig you have ORP - do you set that to lock in a certain mV value and what is the relationship between ORP measurement and FC measurement, in particular as it relates to the TFP "high CYA" situation?
3. Why did the cold weather bump your FC (I assume by hurting your ORP, which the SWG then adjusted for)?

At the moment I'm keeping CYA at 40, because I have read too many scary posts about Cya creep algae bombing pools, but I'm contemplating going higher because I am seeing my Cya is actually dropping over time which gives me a bit of confidence. I maintain fc as per pool math, but it's hard to hit an exact number so I just aim for 5.

My orp control is set to 1 volt. I.e it is effectively disabled.

I honestly don't know exactly why the weather affects my pool the way it does, but all I can say is it does! I suspect low temperature and low UV worked to help retain chlorine.

 

[Mdragger88]

Everybody has u going in the right direction- I just would like to reiterate that proper fc levels for your cya (between target & slam) are not the enemy- under sanitation is & is what causes the things you described in your initial post that u want to avoid.
You definitely want a swg system that gives you plenty of fc, not one that can barely keep up. It takes an optimal salt level for the cell to achieve that. I personally don’t notice the salt taste until 3500ppm but everyone is a little different. That being said - its nothing like swimming in the ocean, more like 1/2 as salty as tears.
Nor do u want to skirt the minimum fc level for your cya. This can lead to issues. You always wanna have some cushion to account for higher uv days, higher than average bather loads, heavy rains etc.
Not sure how marketing has fooled people into thinking sanitary water is not ideal & that less sanitizer is better- but I’d rather swim in a slightly over chlorinated pool than an under sanitized one any day. Also as mentioned above clear doesn’t equal sanitary- you can’t see pathogens .
As an added note- I always run my fc a little higher than target & subscribe to all Recommended Levels
- every child that swims in my pool comments that they like that they can open their eyes underwater & cannot do so in their own pools.

 

[newdude]

I honestly don't know exactly why the weather affects my pool the way it does, but all I can say is it does! I suspect low temperature and low UV worked to help retain chlorine.

It affects us all no matter where we live. We all have a season and the daily demand is a moving target. Many get fooled in the early season and don't catch the UV demand increasing greatly towards mid season. As the season winds down it gets easier again.


A 'properly rated SWG' (20k for 20k for example) may not be able to keep up in the peak season, and running it 24/7 reaches its end of life (around 10k hours) that much sooner. If you double size it, which produces twice the FC in the same run time, you have plenty of production to spare for the high demand parts of the season and only needing to run it half as much makes it last twice as long. Going from 20k to 40k adds about 1/5 (20%) in cost but lasts twice as long. So the math always works in your favor long term.

 

[GreenLeaf]

Everybody has u going in the right direction- I just would like to reiterate that proper fc levels for your cya (between target & slam) are not the enemy- under sanitation is & is what causes the things you described in your initial post that u want to avoid.
You definitely want a swg system that gives you plenty of fc, not one that can barely keep up.

Roger that - get the right tool for the job. At the end of the day I don't need it to do much more than maintain a reliable FC target control.

It takes an optimal salt level for the cell to achieve that. I personally don’t notice the salt taste until 3500ppm but everyone is a little different. That being said - its nothing like swimming in the ocean, more like 1/2 as salty as tears.

Ok.

Nor do u want to skirt the minimum fc level for your cya. This can lead to issues. You always wanna have some cushion to account for higher uv days, higher than average bather loads, heavy rains etc.

Understood. Ride the edge, end up with chloramines. CC is all ch

Not sure how marketing has fooled people into thinking sanitary water is not ideal & that less sanitizer is better- but I’d rather swim in a slightly over chlorinated pool than an under sanitized one any day.

You might underestimate how much I hate the "chlorine feeling" Honestly it's an easy sell to me as someone who has irrational anxieties when it comes to chemicals. But I also value my mental health and there is something to be said for not having to worry about your pool.

As an added note- I always run my fc a little higher than target & subscribe to all Recommended Levels
- every child that swims in my pool comments that they like that they can open their eyes underwater & cannot do so in their own pools.

These two sentences combined are very interesting, thanks. Being able to open my eyes underwater and not have them burn afterwards would really be something...

A 'properly rated SWG' (20k for 20k for example) may not be able to keep up in the peak season, and running it 24/7 reaches its end of life (around 10k hours) that much sooner. If you double size it, which produces twice the FC in the same run time, you have plenty of production to spare for the high demand parts of the season and only needing to run it half as much makes it last twice as long. Going from 20k to 40k adds about 1/5 (20%) in cost but lasts twice as long. So the math always works in your favor long term.

Cool. And that's just the cell life, right? Not the unit itself....

I see a year has 8760 hours, so a cell should last "about a year" running 24x7?

Thanks.

 

[newdude]

Cool. And that's just the cell life, right? Not the unit itself....

I see a year has 8760 hours, so a cell should last "about a year"

Correct. Its life is in hours 'on' (producing) But everybody has an off season that adds lifespan. And in the early/late season you might only need 15%-30% runtime to keep up with the lower FC demand. If you went with a 2X unit, that's 15/30 % of 12 hours runtime. You could also do the appropriate math and just run it 100% for 3 hours (?) too. It's a kind little bugger that doesn't care and will just do what you tell it to.

You might underestimate how much I hate the "chlorine feeling

We got a couple hundy thou members reporting *zero* of the smells/feels of an unsanitary public pool or their friends who leave it up to a pool service with similar results or just ignore it altogether. It might look clear but it sure as heck ain't sanitary either way. Speaking of clear..... check this out. We routinely re-define folks opinion of clear along with what a pool should smell like (nothing, absolutely ZERO)

How Clear is TFP Clear? Let's See (Pics Only Please).

How clear should my water be? A very common question. Here is mine on a calm morning where I could finally vacuum. Yes I know, I'm still manually vacuuming. It took me 7 years to finally get an SWG, I'm working on a robot. :) So now let's see your water clarity.

www.troublefreepool.com

If for some reason you decide to skip the SWG I highly recommend adding a similar level of salt anyway for the feels. One of our Mods nailed it when he said he feels like he needs a shower after a liquid chlorine dosed pool yet feels like he already showered getting out of a salt pool.

(But it's 10% of seawater and almost nothing like it. It's similar in name only)

 

[CRAD_oz]

Welcome Greenleaf!

The SWCG in Oz are normally rated in g/hr output. For your size pool a 45g/hr would be the minimum size to go with.

 

[GreenLeaf]

Welcome Greenleaf!

The SWCG in Oz are normally rated in g/hr output. For your size pool a 45g/hr would be the minimum size to go with.

What would be the "pragmatically over-engineered FTP fanatic" g/hr recommendation?

 

[wireform]

An RJ60 puts out 3.1 lbs/day which =49.9 ounces in 24hours, multiply that by 28.35 grams= 1406 gram/ 24 hrs which is 59 grams /hour. That will be 2X pool capacity rated.

 

[aussieta]

people who say they are allergic to chlorine, i point them to the data sheets for their drinking water
(up to 5ppm chlorine, for south east water, less than 1ppm added at secondary trreatment plants), yet they have no trouble bathing or drinking
file:///C:/Users/XEOS7/Downloads/Water%20Quality%20Report%202019-20%20(3Mb).pdf page 34
i have had people who get eczema and newborns in my pool, at 7ppm fc, and they all comment how smooth and clean my pool feels, with no red eyes and no smell because my cya is at 70ppm

 

[GreenLeaf]

Today I drained my pool. Happy to watch the pool tint in the water disappear forever, hopefully.

Three questions...

Firstly, over the past few weeks I have noticed whiter areas at the bottom of the pool, mainly down the west and north side (ie: not consistent with sun). It is not present at the top of the walls, it's strongest in the curved corners at the bottom.

Now that the pool is draining I can get a good close look.

Can you let me know what you think this is, whether I should do anything about it, and what I could do about it. It isn't a big bother for me, and I can live with it. I'd mainly just like to know what it is.

Interestingly, I took these photos in shade and while not obvious to the naked eye, a close up photo does show what appears to be some blue/green staining on the white. From afar it isn't visible, and not enough to bother with treating it specifically. You can see "water covered", "wet" and "dried" versions.

Secondly, as I will be soon refilling and re-balancing the pool, can I ask what TFP's opinion of magnesium salts are? I read that all SWGs work with magnesium as well as sodium salts. I get the feeling magnesium salts are fancy and "feel better". I read that magnapool uses a magnesium/potassium mix. I don't mind the extra expense if there is some tangible benefit (nicer feel, less taste, "good for muscles", etc).

Thirdly, in terms of putting quality salt and balancing agents in (in the context of this post on TFP about her pool turning blue due to salt being adulterated by "yellow prussiate of soda"), any tips on which brands/sources to use to ensure I am really starting with a clean, unadulterated slate.

Many thanks.

 

[aussieta]

pool salt from bunnings is ok, the premium dissolves quicker, you dont want to let it sit in one undsisolved pile on the floor,
the magnesium salt at bunnings contains iron as well and makes water green for a day or two
no real benefit to using it, imo