Borate threw my balance off

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Mozartk626

Member
Mar 31, 2021
20
Houston
I'm a fairly new pool owner. I bought the Easy Pool Chemistry book, read it cover to cover, followed each step meticulously, and was doing amazingly well until I added my borate. I can't figure out what happened, and I'm so frustrated. I got my CYA up to 50 ppm, got my calcium hardness to 362 ppm, brought my alkalinity up to 94 ppm with a ph of 7.5, and everything was looking fantastic. I added two doses of borate about 8 hours apart to get it up to around 50 ppm (I think I probably overshot it, but not by much. Maybe it's at 60 or 70 now. Test strips aren't so precise.)

Anyway, I added some cal-hypo (because my chlorine was very low), let the pool run overnight, and now at 10:30 in the morning my pH and alkalinity are through the roof! pH went up to 8.0, and alkalinity is now testing at 219 ppm, and I know it's not a bad reading because I use the Lamotte digital reading with liquid drops, and the alkalinity drops that are supposed to be kind of grass-green turned the water sample dark blue!

I guess my question is, how did this happen, and is this just some temporary effect that will go back to normal once the borate gets thoroughly mixed in? For reference, I used Pro Team Supreme Plus, which is supposed to be mostly boric acid, and specifically says it's a pH neutral compound that won't effect your pH at all. What I'm really dumbfounded about is why I spent all that time meticulously adjusting my alkalinity to a target of 90 ppm only to have the borate knock it off the charts. Anybody know what happened here?
 
It is only about 40 to 50% boric oxide so who knows what else is in that stuff... It is not the borates doing what you are seeing it is the 50 to 60% of the other junk they add in there..

Next time get boric acid as it is probably cheaper and better :)

www.bulkapothecary.com

Boric Acid

Buy Boric Acid in bulk direct from the manufacturer. Shop today!
www.bulkapothecary.com www.bulkapothecary.com

I ordered 55 pounds and cost 100 with shipping..
 
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One SDS says boron oxide, which becomes boric acid in water, but 40 to 50% is a "Trade Secret".

B2O3 + 3H2O → 2H3BO3

Without knowing what the "Trade Secret" is, we can't figure out what happened.

1629043174885.png
1629043218503.png

www.proteampoolcare.com

Supreme PLUS - ProTeam

Reduces the amount of time between cleaning cycles. Perfect for pools using salt chlorine generators.
www.proteampoolcare.com www.proteampoolcare.com

This SDS says Sodium Tetraborate Pentahydrate, which is basically the same thing as Borax and it will raise the pH and the TA.

You should have used only boric acid.


1629043311539.png

 
I used borates for several years but I used Boric Acid from Duda Diesel. I had none of the problems you mention. Ph did rise and stabilized at 7.7-7.9. Made huge improvement in my pH stability. I went from adding acid every couple days to every couple weeks eventually went to once per month. I did have to add a lot more acid each time but at least I wasn't doing this all the time. Eventually (took several years) acid required each time dropped and I suspect this was more due to curing of the plaster. Wish I could be of more help. Only thing I might add is that I don't like to add anything to my pool that is unknown. There is also a way better way to test borates if you don't mind purchasing a couple reagents and some of the TF 100 reagents. Way better! The strips never registered any borates even though I added 50 ppm. Drop test was withing about 5 ppm of calculated amount - I strongly endorse this test based on my own experience with it. How are you testing other levels other than borates?

Chris
 
Motzart,

PS Welcome to TFP! I hope some of our experts are able to help solve this mystery for you. Perhaps our resident mad scientist @JoyfulNoise will be able to help.

Chris
 
setsailsoon said:
I used borates for several years but I used Boric Acid from Duda Diesel. I had none of the problems you mention. Ph did rise and stabilized at 7.7-7.9. Made huge improvement in my pH stability. I went from adding acid every couple days to every couple weeks eventually went to once per month. I did have to add a lot more acid each time but at least I wasn't doing this all the time. Eventually (took several years) acid required each time dropped and I suspect this was more due to curing of the plaster. Wish I could be of more help. Only thing I might add is that I don't like to add anything to my pool that is unknown. There is also a way better way to test borates if you don't mind purchasing a couple reagents and some of the TF 100 reagents. Way better! The strips never registered any borates even though I added 50 ppm. Drop test was withing about 5 ppm of calculated amount - I strongly endorse this test based on my own experience with it. How are you testing other levels other than borates?

Chris
Click to expand...
I am testing everything with the Lamotte ColorQ digital system that uses drops (not tablets). I find that it usually gives me a good ballpark reading, with the exception of calcium hardness, which is normally about 100 ppm too low. (No idea why that level of inaccuracy.) I test with that stuff during the week, and then I usually go to the pool store for a more accurate reading before the weekend so I can adjust before everyone swims. I would love to find a way to test borates with drops, but haven't found anything. What are you using?
 
Mozartk626 said:
I would love to find a way to test borates with drops, but haven't found anything. What are you using?
Click to expand...

Borates - I've got TFPicitus!

OK, My wife coined that word. It happens when you can't stand to use strips for anything even borates when you say "there's no other way to test it". I way over-dosed when I originally and used a test strip that barely registered so I just went by the Pool Math calculation but this has...
www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com
 
Mozartk626 said:
I am testing everything with the Lamotte ColorQ digital system that uses drops (not tablets). I find that it usually gives me a good ballpark reading, with the exception of calcium hardness, which is normally about 100 ppm too low. (No idea why that level of inaccuracy.) I test with that stuff during the week, and then I usually go to the pool store for a more accurate reading before the weekend so I can adjust before everyone swims. I would love to find a way to test borates with drops, but haven't found anything. What are you using?
Click to expand...
I use this drop test: Borate Alkalinity Test Kit

Super long thread that explains how to roll your own drop test: New borate drop test at piscines-apollo vs. test strip
 

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JamesW said:
One SDS says boron oxide, which becomes boric acid in water, but 40 to 50% is a "Trade Secret".

B2O3 + 3H2O → 2H3BO3

Without knowing what the "Trade Secret" is, we can't figure out what happened.

View attachment 364542
View attachment 364543

www.proteampoolcare.com

Supreme PLUS - ProTeam

Reduces the amount of time between cleaning cycles. Perfect for pools using salt chlorine generators.
www.proteampoolcare.com www.proteampoolcare.com

This SDS says Sodium Tetraborate Pentahydrate, which is basically the same thing as Borax and it will raise the pH and the TA.

You should have used only boric acid.


View attachment 364544

Click to expand...
Found a thread that talks about this exact thing. Almost identical result. The recommendation here is to just add acid to whenever the pH goes up, and over time the alkalinity will come back down. Do you agree?

Proteam Supreme Plus raised TA

Hi there and thanks in advance for reading and commenting on this post. Reading all of the positive impacts from having borates in the pool, I decided to add the Proteam Supreme Plus to get to 50 ppm. I know this is a more expensive route, but I was looking for easy and this solution would...
www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com
 
cowboycasey said:
It is only about 40 to 50% boric oxide so who knows what else is in that stuff... It is not the borates doing what you are seeing it is the 50 to 60% of the other junk they add in there..

Next time get boric acid as it is probably cheaper and better :)

www.bulkapothecary.com

Boric Acid

Buy Boric Acid in bulk direct from the manufacturer. Shop today!
www.bulkapothecary.com www.bulkapothecary.com

I ordered 55 pounds and cost 100 with shipping..
Click to expand...
This is what I used too. Not a single issue.
 
Mozartk626 said:
One more thing. Everyone is recommending boric acid, but isn't that just basically roach poison? Why would I want my 3-year old swimming in that?
Click to expand...
It is in fact roach poison. It is harmful to many bugs. It is not harmful to animals or humans with the amount used in pools. It’s used as an eye flush, ear cleaner, disinfectant for cuts, cleaning contact lenses, washing clothes. It is an inhalation hazard so use a mask when working with dry boric acid.
 
I suggest you read the following posts -

Borates - Why and How

Borates - Why and How Why Adding borates can improve your experience with your pool, but is completely optional. If you do plan to use borates, wait until everything else is settled down before adding borates, especially TA and PH. The only situations where we specifically recommend using...
www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com

Are Borates Safe to Use?

Since I've found different, though similar, sources of information and have been asked about this in multiple posts, I thought I would consolidate some information on the safety of using borates in a pool (or spa). It started with information in this report where the most reasonable number for...
www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com

You stated up at the top that you are using the advice printed in a book called Easy Pool Chemistry . I suggest you read TFP's PoolSchool and the TFP Philosophy of pool care. If you agree with what TFP teaches, then you can put that book on the shelf or use it to kill roaches (better than boric acid). But please do not try to mix & match pool care advice. I have no idea what that book teaches and I honestly am too busy to bother with it. Pick one or the other ...

As well, I would suggest you get away from using an expensive (and often wrong) digital tester and simply go with one of the drop-based titration test kits recommended here. They are cheaper to use and give results with enough precision and accuracy for good pool care. Digital testers, at best, will give similar results but more often than not they simply degrade over time due to loss of calibration and then the user winds up chasing their tails trying to figure out why nothing makes sense. You can already see that it does not do a good job with calcium hardness and your TA test (the blue color) was messed up from the high chlorine levels since most of those digital testers can not read higher than 10ppm FC and most of those digital tester reagents won't work properly when the FC is higher than 10ppm. Drop based test kits do not suffer from those issues.
 
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Mozartk626 said:
brought my alkalinity up to 94 ppm
Click to expand...

Mozartk626 said:
alkalinity is now testing at 219 ppm
Click to expand...
219 - 94 = 125 increase in TA.

If the product was 100% sodium tetraborate pentahydrate and it raised the borate by 55 ppm, it would also raise the TA by 125 ppm, which exactly matches your results.

Based on the SDS and the results, I think that we can conclude that the product is mostly sodium tetraborate pentahydrate, which is not pH neutral as they claim.

You should probably contact Proteam and let them know that they are making a mistake about their product representation.
 
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Check the bucket! ProTeam makes two borate additives - ProTeam Supreme and ProTeam Supreme Plus.

ProTeam Supreme is 100% borax. And probably 4X the price of the 20 Mule Team Borax you can get in the laundry aisle at Target or Walmart.
 
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