Zero CYA and FC but want to SLAM

[ethan169]

Hello TFP!

I have read a bunch of articles on TFP, especially the SLAM article, but I still have some questions. I've searched a bunch of posts (old and recent) and haven't seen my questions addressed so far.

Above ground vinyl pool in New England with a cartridge filtration system. I wasn't able to open my pool last summer so it has been closed since 2018. It's green and cloudy.

My current readings (from the best test strips I could find. I know I should get a proper test kit and I think I will):
PH 7.2
FC 0
TC 0
CYA 0
Alkalinity 80-120

All of the articles and posts I read about SLAM and algae removal are not clear about where to start when both CYA and TC/FC are 0. Should I raise my CYA level to 30-45PPM and the raise FC to SLAM levels? Or should I SLAM for however long it takes and then raise the CYA? Or do I have an ammonia problem?

I have a couple cases of liquid shock, 4lbs of CYA, PH up, PH down ready to go. I also have a new cartridge filter on the way. My current filter seems ok, but one of the lifting handles on the top broke and its been a few years since I've replaced it.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

 

[clduncan]

Everything I was told when I was doing my slamm was to add enough chlorine to get to 5ppm and raise CYA to 30. If you start your slam with no CYA the sun will burn up your Chlorine during the day and you will have to test and add more often and it will take longer to clear your pool up. We went through 10-15 gallons of 10% bleach for our Slam in 21 days.

 

[thetekgeek]

Unfortunately, without a good reliable test kit we are not going to be much help to you. How many gallons is your pool? You might consider a full drain and refill. Otherwise, you'll want to get a good test kit on order we recommend the TF100 from tftestkits.net or the Taylor K2006C. While you are waiting for the kit, use PoolMath to calculate 5ppm of chlorine and add that amount to your pool daily using liquid chlorine/bleach. Once the kit arrives, run a full set of tests and post them here.

 

[mguzzy]

Howdy, welcome to the forum!

I'll get to the point! Get your Test kit order from TFTestkits.net... I'll save you from the shopping around.. just get that one. get a speedstir, it makes testing much easier, especially if you are not ambidextrous enough to drop and stir at the same time. If you think you are going to need to SLAM out the gate then order the XL option, and you'll get more reagents that are used up during a SLAM. They ship fast and you should have your kit within 2-3 days

So I take it your pool is cloudy! then you have come to the right place. We can't proceed with the SLAM until you have a test kit that we know is reliable AND is what we have all standardized on in this forum. You need accurate testing to follow where you are during the SLAM process. In the meantime.. I would add HALF the CYA you have calculated.. (we will update it later) and enough CL to raise your pool to 5 ppm FC until your kit arrives. You can still swim in it if you can see the bottom. Post your results and we'll resume the process then!

That's it for now!

 

[ethan169]

Thank you for all the reply's!

I'll order the TF-100 test kit and hopefully have it sometime this week.

The pool is 12x24' and about 4-4.5' deep. So I believe it is 8.6k - 10k gallons. The pool water is light green/blue and very cloudy. Almost a week ago I did my normal super shock and algaecide. It lightened the color quite a bit and the water (do to me running the pump and agitating the water) become quite cloudy with algae particulate (I think). I decided to stop the pump since things were not improving to my liking and I didn't want to dump cash into my pool blindly.

All that being said, I do want to use the pool asap since the weather is warm and we don't get too much of there around here, BUT I am ok waiting until it is ready and I have a well defined plan forward. So, should I just wait for the test kit to come, get more accurate measurements and report back?

Or, should I follow what mguzzy has suggested below? The only reason I ask is I would really rather not waste chemicals to swim prematurely. I'm ok waiting until I can test and follow a plan. If adding CYA and liquid chlorine will give me a headstart no matter what, then I may as well do that.

So, what do I adjust first? CYA, or FC? I haven't read any good explanation of which to start with when both are reading "0".

Howdy, welcome to the forum!

I'll get to the point! Get your Test kit order from TFTestkits.net... I'll save you from the shopping around.. just get that one. get a speedstir, it makes testing much easier, especially if you are not ambidextrous enough to drop and stir at the same time. If you think you are going to need to SLAM out the gate then order the XL option, and you'll get more reagents that are used up during a SLAM. They ship fast and you should have your kit within 2-3 days

So I take it your pool is cloudy! then you have come to the right place. We can't proceed with the SLAM until you have a test kit that we know is reliable AND is what we have all standardized on in this forum. You need accurate testing to follow where you are during the SLAM process. In the meantime.. I would add HALF the CYA you have calculated.. (we will update it later) and enough CL to raise your pool to 5 ppm FC until your kit arrives. You can still swim in it if you can see the bottom. Post your results and we'll resume the process then!

That's it for now!

Thanks again!

 

[mguzzy]

I'm ok waiting until I can test and follow a plan.

This IS the plan
-Keep pool from getting worse
-Get a set of test numbers so we know where to start
-SLAM that puppy!

Whether you use the pool or not you need to get some chlorine in there to sanitize it. Its a health risk otherwise. It leaves the pool open to infestation of other organisms and spetic. The CYA helps protect the chlorine from the UV of the sun. If you add chlorine without any CYA, the Cl will burn off within hours. You can add both at the same time. Add the CYA with the sock method.. that is put the CYA in a sock (like a nylon sock) and hang it in front of a return... that will dissolve it directly into the water. squeeze it every now and then to help the process. Remember just put in half of what you've calculated. Without a proper test I don't want to go over the amount otherwise we will have to partially drain the pool. And you can add chlorine by pouring it into the pool in front of a return to distribute it. Everyday the chlorine will be consumed by the algae so you'll have to do it each day until your kit arrives and we can start the SLAM. Do you have the Pool App setup yet? it helps a lot to calculate your additions.

I hope that makes sense.. don't hesitate to ask any questions.. I assume you have read the ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry?

Lastly, would you mind putting your equipment into your signature? it helps give everyone a quick reference to your pool setup.

edit: Also can you remember what you have already put in your pool? You mentioned some other chemicals above. Even post a pic if you are not sure.

 

[ethan169]

This IS the plan
-Keep pool from getting worse
-Get a set of test numbers so we know where to start
-SLAM that puppy!

Whether you use the pool or not you need to get some chlorine in there to sanitize it. Its a health risk otherwise. It leaves the pool open to infestation of other organisms and spetic. The CYA helps protect the chlorine from the UV of the sun. If you add chlorine without any CYA, the Cl will burn off within hours. You can add both at the same time. Add the CYA with the sock method.. that is put the CYA in a sock (like a nylon sock) and hang it in front of a return... that will dissolve it directly into the water. squeeze it every now and then to help the process. Remember just put in half of what you've calculated. Without a proper test I don't want to go over the amount otherwise we will have to partially drain the pool. And you can add chlorine by pouring it into the pool in front of a return to distribute it. Everyday the chlorine will be consumed by the algae so you'll have to do it each day until your kit arrives and we can start the SLAM. Do you have the Pool App setup yet? it helps a lot to calculate your additions.

I hope that makes sense.. don't hesitate to ask any questions.. I assume you have read the ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry?

Lastly, would you mind putting your equipment into your signature? it helps give everyone a quick reference to your pool setup.

edit: Also can you remember what you have already put in your pool? You mentioned some other chemicals above. Even post a pic if you are not sure.

Sounds good! I've got the TF-100 kit on order and will start by adding the chlorine and half of the calculated CYA.

I have read the :ABC's of Pool Water Chemistry", but I'll read it again to make sure I have a good handle on it.

I did download the pool app and it seems useful but I'll have to play around with it for a bit. I'm not sure what the paid version costs or if its necessary, but if its not super useful I don't mind just hand calculating. The math involved isn't terribly complicated..

I've also updated my sig per your request.

I'll report back with some numbers once my kit arrives. Thanks again!

 

[mguzzy]

Excellent.
The PoolMath app is really useful for calculating additions and That's what I use it for. I track my results in a spreadsheet, I just find it easier. But if you want to share your results other members can see your testing regime and help out. The old version of the Pool Math app is in a link at the bottom of the page. I use that too to look up a quick number every now and then.
In the meantime read up on these if you haven't found them already SLAM Process, Overnight Chlorine Loss Test, FC/CYA Levels

 

[Frodo]

Sounds good! I've got the TF-100 kit on order and will start by adding the chlorine and half of the calculated CYA.

I have read the :ABC's of Pool Water Chemistry", but I'll read it again to make sure I have a good handle on it.

I did download the pool app and it seems useful but I'll have to play around with it for a bit. I'm not sure what the paid version costs or if its necessary, but if its not super useful I don't mind just hand calculating. The math involved isn't terribly complicated..

I've also updated my sig per your request.

I'll report back with some numbers once my kit arrives. Thanks again!

I actually wouldn't put any CYA in at this point. You do not know if you have bacteria in your water that could consume the CYA you would be adding which would lead to a really large chlorine demand. Also, you said you had dumped in super shock and algaecide. Do you know how much you added and what the products were? What I would do while you are waiting for your test kit is to just put 5 ppm of chlorine (liquid) into your pool each day using the values calculated from pool math. It's easier to add CYA then it is to remove it.

 

[ethan169]

Sorry for the delay.

when I opened the pool I put 4 lbs of granular shock in (68% calcium hypochlorite),ran the pump for 24 hours. Then added 32oz of a product called “Black Algecide” which is 60% of (see picture below)

One more thing, I do have an automatic chlorinator hat uses these “bac pacs” of chlorine. I had a cartridge installed for the second 24 hours of pump operation and it was turned up to about 30%. See the picture below for ingredients. It is a trochloro product.

the shock I have on hand now is liquid. 12.5% sodium hypochlorite. I haven’t put anything in yet as now I’m not sure what to do about the CYA. Keep in mind the pool has been closed for over 18months, and it probably wasn’t in perfect balance when I closed it.

 

[thetekgeek]

The Cal-hypo shock added chlorine and calcium. The "bac pacs" added chlorine and CYA. The "Black Algaecide" was probably simply a waste and it likely added some copper to your water.

I'd hold off on any additions other than 5ppm of that liquid 12.5% you have (it adds chlorine and salt) daily until your kit arrives. We are still flying blind for the time being. Once you get your kit, run a full set of tests and post them up. We are all eagerly awaiting those results and excited to help you through this cleanup. From this point on, you're going to be armed with the knowledge and ability to take care of that pool in a trouble free way!

 

[ethan169]

The Cal-hypo shock added chlorine and calcium. The "bac pacs" added chlorine and CYA. The "Black Algaecide" was probably simply a waste and it likely added some copper to your water.

I'd hold off on any additions other than 5ppm of that liquid 12.5% you have (it adds chlorine and salt) daily until your kit arrives. We are still flying blind for the time being. Once you get your kit, run a full set of tests and post them up. We are all eagerly awaiting those results and excited to help you through this cleanup. From this point on, you're going to be armed with the knowledge and ability to take care of that pool in a trouble free way!

Ok, Ill hold off on the CYA then. It looks like I'll get my test kit in this coming Friday. So what should I do with my pump? Let it run 24/7, or 8-10 hours a day?

The black algecide product has worked for me in the past. I usually have quite a bit of algae to clean up when I open my pool. I normally super chlorinate and then use this algaecide. Then I vaccumm up the dead algae, clean the filter and repeat. After some time the green goes away. I have had issues with cloudy water in the past, but I thought it was related to my cartridge filter not being able to filter down to that particulate level. I would buy a new filter ($50-60) and it would clear up.

I'll report back with my test results hopefully sometime Friday evening.

 

[mguzzy]

Yes I concur with @thetekgeek .. Hold off adding anything until you get your test results. I was operating on the assumption you hadn't put anything with CYA in it into the pool yet. That's why its so important to ask (for me) and you to know what chems are in the water and what they do. So keep up the 5ppm/day chlorine. Let the pump run its normal schedule should be fine. How does the pool look? is just cloudy still at this point?

 

[thetekgeek]

The black algecide product has worked for me in the past. I usually have quite a bit of algae to clean up when I open my pool. I normally super chlorinate and then use this algaecide. Then I vaccumm up the dead algae, clean the filter and repeat. After some time the green goes away. I have had issues with cloudy water in the past, but I thought it was related to my cartridge filter not being able to filter down to that particulate level. I would buy a new filter ($50-60) and it would clear up.

I'll report back with my test results hopefully sometime Friday evening.

You'll certainly learn this as you go, but thought I would tell you that the algaecide probably didn't do much for you in the past. Algaecide is a terrible name for what it does, it's primary purpose is prevention of algae and does little to nothing when it comes to killing algae, this site only recommends certain types of algaecide and only at specific times. The super chlorinate step probably was what helped you. As you probably know now, the SLAM process here is a little different in that you will "super chlorinate" to a certain level (based on your CYA) and maintain that level until you pass the criteria.

 

[mguzzy]

So I went to the PoolMate website and they don't have a link to an SDS for Black Algecide. But it appears to be non metallic (that's good) and specifically for black and mustard algae. If you are not having issues with either of those types of algae then it was probably not a very effective addition. If you check the Pool School section of the site they have some good ways of dealing with those types of algae.

Algae Archives

www.troublefreepool.com

One of the goals of this site is to have pool owners realize exactly what they are putting in thier pools and what they do. Often there are conflicting recommendations for pool chem additions that create a chemical soup nightmare in your water. The protocol that is supported here will allow you to maintain your pool with a minimum of common items, Chlorine, Muriatic acid, baking soda and CYA.. that's it for the most part.

 

[Frodo]

So I went to the PoolMate website and they don't have a link to an SDS for Black Algecide. But it appears to be non metallic (that's good) and specifically for black and mustard algae. If you are not having issues with either of those types of algae then it was probably not a very effective addition. If you check the Pool School section of the site they have some good ways of dealing with those types of algae.

Algae Archives

www.troublefreepool.com

One of the goals of this site is to have pool owners realize exactly what they are putting in thier pools and what they do. Often there are conflicting recommendations for pool chem additions that create a chemical soup nightmare in your water. The protocol that is supported here will allow you to maintain your pool with a minimum of common items, Chlorine, Muriatic acid, baking soda and CYA.. that's it for the most part.

I found the SDS for the Pool Mate Black Algaecide on Home Depot's website. It's odd the manufacturer does not have this information on their website. The SDS does not give more information other than what's on the label, so we don't know what the "other ingredients" are. But the main component is polyquat 60, the same thing in something like ProTeam's Polyquat 60. So the Black Algaecide is not a bad product, it's just that as @mguzzy mentioned, it's a preventative and not a solution for an active algae bloom.

https://images.homedepot-static.com/catalog/pdfImages/6a/6adb9ef3-3ec0-42ea-a297-992f018a20b3.pdf

 

[ethan169]

The test kit was slightly delayed but it finally arrived last night. I took a water sample about 18" below the surface and went inside to run some tests.

Here are the results:
Ph = 7.2
Cl = 0
Br = 0
FC = 0
CC = 0 to 1.5ppm? This confusing, I wasn't sure if I should run the test since the solution was basically clear to begin with..
Calcium Hardness = 200ppm
Alk = 90ppm
CYA < 20 I filled hte CYA tube basically to the top and I could still see the dot fairly well at the bottom. I would guess I have 0 or close to it CYA. The top mark was 20 and I was above it.

I also have a brand new cartridge filter ready to install. The water is bluish (maybe a touch of green, but not bad) and definitely still cloudy.
Should I proceed with raising CYA and Cl to Slam levels?
Can I install the new cartridge filter, or should I wait for some reason?

FYI - I also used a test strip on the same sample of water, and the results were in the right ballpark. The Ph slightly difficult to read due to the color being in between 6.8 and 7.2 but the actual reading was 7.2 with the K1000 test. I'm glad I have the full test kit, but the strips don't seem to be as bad as people say they are.

Thanks for everyone's help!

 

[mknauss]

Add 20 ppm worth of CYA using the sock method and call it 30 ppm. Add chlorine for a FC of 12 ppm and maintain.

Is your current filter damaged? As long as you clean it when the filter pressure rises by 25% over clean pressure, no need to replace it.

 

[ethan169]

Add 20 ppm worth of CYA using the sock method and call it 30 ppm. Add chlorine for a FC of 12 ppm and maintain.

Is your current filter damaged? As long as you clean it when the filter pressure rises by 25% over clean pressure, no need to replace it.

mknauss - Thank you for the quick response! I calculated how much CYA to add to achieve 20ppm (assuming I am currently at 0) and added using the sock in front of the return method. I also calculated how much bleach to add to raise FC to 12ppm (assuming 30ppm CYA) and added around the pool. I turned the filter on continuous and let it run overnight.

This morning about 10-11 hours later I took another water sample and ran the whole test suite. There was still a smallish amount of CYA in the sock.
Ph = 7.2
Cl (with taylor k1000) = 0.5-1ppm
FC = 1ppm
CC = 1ppm
Calcium Hardness = 200ppm
Alk = 70 (my previous test may have been off by a drop, so that could explain the difference?)
CYA < 20

I took pictures of the CYA tube filled basically all the way for both tests, not much difference between the two. The chlorine levels are definitely up but only slightly. I"m surprised my CYA levels don't appear to be increased by much if any. The water doesn't look much different this morning. Still blue/greenish and very cloudy. You can't see the bottom at all and its only 3.5 - 4' deep.

Should I focus on getting CYA up first? Also, we are in a bit of a heat spell in the northeast and are getting quite a bit of sunlight during the day time. There hasn't been any significant sun for the 11 hours that have passed since I added chemicals, there is about to be though...

I also have a solar cover, I assume I shouldn't use that until I am finished with the SLAM process?

 

[Katodude]

Assume the CYA is in there for now. Keep squeezing the sock to help it dissolve. Get your FC to 12 and test every 2 hours today. Keep bumping the FC to 12. Maintaining that FC is the key to success.