Get IntelliPH working without InteliChlor?

[Dirk]

VERY neat! First thing I noticed!!

There are some vocabulary issues. James is using a power supply. It's not a transformer (though likely contains one). I provided links to power supplies, but then used the term transformer incorrectly in a previous post or two. Sorry about that. Yes, the OP needs a 24VDC, 1A power supply to run the IpH pump. He shouldn't try to get that power somewhere off the motherboard, for sure. If James can corroborate that the one I suggested is working for him, then the OP is all set on the choice of part. But, and pardon me if I'm misinterpreting, it seems the OP might not quite understand what an ET relay does, or how to wire one up: input, output, load, etc. So I concur that if he's not comfortable with the language, or concept, or wiring, that he find someone that is to help him (onsite). Those mother boards are crazy expensive!!

And yes, James, if it was my setup, I'd want another layer of protection! I love your egg timer idea. But I'd add a flow switch, wired in series with the pump and relay (are there 1A, normally open, flow switches?), so that both the relay and the flow switch would have to be closed before acid injects.

Can the ET be trusted? Can any timer? Even the one that comes with the IpH (which has built in max-dosage safeguards built in)? We roll those dice. Just yesterday, with everything off (in between schedules) I launched ScreenLogic on my iPhone to dial down the runtime hours for my filter pump (too much SWG action going on this time of year). A minute later I hear my solar system filling on the roof. My filter pump is running and solar is engaged. I turned neither on, nor was either scheduled to come on just yet. All I did was edit a schedule in ScreenLogic! I've experienced similar, uh, inconsistencies before with my ET scheduling. So using an ET to pump acid is not without some risk, I think it is fair to say.

Now, my IpH controller could just as easily fail, and send 24V to my IpH pump until the tank runs dry. So nothing is bulletproof. Ha, for the first month I had it running, I checked the pH just before my kids got in. Ya never know!

My ultimate safeguard is the size of the IpH tank and the 1:1 dilution I use. If it failed on day one after filling the hopper as full as I ever do, my pool would get 1.5 gallons of 31% MA. I'd get a free exfoliating scrub, and my pool would get one, too, but I think we'd both survive.

 

[bdavis466]

Brian,

That makes more sense to me and is exactly what the OP needs to run his IpH pump...

Can you please fly out here and rewire my ET so that it looks as professional as yours???

Thanks,

Jim R.

I'll pack my bags...

- - - Updated - - -

Dirk I too have noticed that if I change the pump speed or any sort of scheduling the pump turns on whether it's scheduled to or not. I don't recall that happening in the past so I'm not really sure what the deal is

 

[Dirk]

OK, so it's not just my imagination! Now if that happened with an acid relay... yikes. Hopefully the egg timer would kick in...

 

[Dirk]

What I'd want is some sort of simple circuit wired in series with everything else, that would be a limiter, which would actually control the dosing. So the ET turns the relay on and powers the timer, which closes down after x seconds or minutes. That way, the ET, the relay, the flow switch, and the mini-timer would all have to fail doing their job to let acid get where it's not supposed to be.

Otherwise known as an IpH controller!

 

[Dirk]

I poked around on Amazon. I think there are simple little circuits that do exactly what I described...

 

[bdavis466]

I don't think it's necessary. I've never had a circuit just randomly turn on other than the filter pump relay and even though it's a little odd that it does it, and I guess it's understandable and since you made a change to the pump speed. a simple generic circuit that the acid pump is tied to doesn't seem like it should have the same thing happen and even if it did it doesn't have power unless the pump was also running.

I'll try making a change to the acid pump schedule and see if that gets it to kick on later today.

 

[Dirk]

You know me. I have to play out all the worst-case scenarios, and all the remotest possibilities, and then do my risk assessment routine! And post it all here!! It's one thing if my pool tries to heat itself in the middle of the night. Or vacuums itself for two weeks straight while I'm away. Even over- or under-dosing with an SWG wouldn't likely cause permanent damage, unless I was in the habit of ignoring my pool for weeks straight. But what is the pH of a no-drain acid wash? I'm pretty sure my IpH could deliver that within an hour or two. And how long does one typically last? Hours? A day? I'm equally sure that Pentair would not pony up for new plaster should that occur! Acid dosing is a component of my automation that gives me pause...

 

[bdavis466]

It would take about 16 gallons of acid in your pool...

 

[Dirk]

Brian, thanks for that. Very comforting actually. I had plugged 1.5 gallons of 31%MA into Pool Math and got a very significant pH and TA drop (3.75 and 61, respectively), so I was envisioning my plaster melting off the walls while I was away for a week somewhere! (Murphy's Law mandating that my IpH will go haywire the day after I leave for a trip!!)

What would 1.5 gallons of 31% MA do to a pebble surface in 12,300 gallons of water? Over what span of time? Any guesses?

If one of my kids jumped into a pool that had 1.5 gallons of MA too much, how bad would it be?

 

[bdavis466]

It wouldn't touch the pool and would do nothing to your kid. Do you have any idea what the pH of a Coke or a cup of coffee is?

 

[Dirk]

OK, whew, thanks Brian! Then I can stop worrying about my IntellipH, and just enjoy its convenience. Yay!

I do remember back to junior high, when one of the reoccurring science fair projects was charting how long it took a tooth to dissolve in a jar of Coca Cola!

I'll only add it might be something for these Stenner guys to think about, who are feeding their pumps from 15 or 30 gallon tanks! I guess it would come down to their pump's rate and how often they check their gear...

 

[dfattfp]

d,

I am sorry, but that is not how this works... The EasyTouch 4 and 8 both use the same main board and front panel, but the firmware in the ET4 limits you to only 3 Aux relays.. all the extra connectors and buttons for Aux 4 through 7 are not usable with the ET 4.

Also, the DC voltage to turn the relays on and off can't be used to run your pump, because the pump uses too much current.

I think before modifying your EasyTouch, that you consult a friend, or professional, that has a solid background in electronics to help you get this done.. Otherwise, I am a little worried that you might damage your ET, which could cost you a pretty penny to repair.

Thanks,

Jim R.

Although it doesn't have the relay, can't you just add it. It has the pins for it at J12, and the board allows programming it. Just add one and now you have 5 instead of 4? Anyway, in the pics is there only one wire on load/line on some because using a common common?

 

[Dirk]

The motherboards are physically the same. You can solder or plug in all the parts you want, to make it look just like an ET 8. But the board's firmware (software that's hard-coded into the board itself, and not user upgradeable) won't accept those added parts, and will ignore them. And what is available in programming mode doesn't matter either. For example, my system will happily allow me to schedule 8 or 12 events, without objecting or warning. Only four of them will work...

The only upgrade path is a complete replacement of the entire mother board.

 

[bdavis466]

Although it doesn't have the relay, can't you just add it. It has the pins for it at J12, and the board allows programming it. Just add one and now you have 5 instead of 4? Anyway, in the pics is there only one wire on load/line on some because using a common common?

The relays only need line voltage, the commons get directly connected. It really is no different than a light switch.

 

[Derb22]

OK, whew, thanks Brian! Then I can stop worrying about my IntellipH, and just enjoy its convenience. Yay!

I do remember back to junior high, when one of the reoccurring science fair projects was charting how long it took a tooth to dissolve in a jar of Coca Cola!

I'll only add it might be something for these Stenner guys to think about, who are feeding their pumps from 15 or 30 gallon tanks! I guess it would come down to their pump's rate and how often they check their gear...

Great question. Dirk Would love to hear what would happen if somehow I dumped 20 gallons of 1/1 diluted 31% MA in a 24k pool. . So 10gallons into the pool. Right now running 1 hour a day on the 3 GPD 30 Gallon Stenner. All is well but what would the consequence be of dumping it all in. ( I started with 10 and 10 gallons water to MA )

 

[Dirk]

Great question. Dirk Would love to hear what would happen if somehow I dumped 20 gallons of 1/1 diluted 31% MA in a 24k pool. . So 10gallons into the pool. Right now running 1 hour a day on the 3 GPD 30 Gallon Stenner. All is well but what would the consequence be of dumping it all in. ( I started with 10 and 10 gallons water to MA )

I don't know the answer to that. I was freaking out about 2 gallons into a 12K pool! Brian has estimated it would take 16 gallons of MA in my 12k to achieve a no-drain acid wash. He thinks 1.5 gallons would do nothing to my pool. That's all I have to go on. That, and another thread here where somebody fixed their new, but dull pebble finish with a no-drain acid wash. There were before and after photos of how much more pebble was revealed after the wash, clearly illustrating (to me, anyway) how much plaster that process can chew through. It wasn't stated how much acid was used, nor for how long. But obviously there is some threshold where some amount of MA will destroy your finish if left for some amount of time. And apparently it's in the low double digits, not hundreds of gallons.

Brian's advice is my due diligence (so far). According to him, the amount of acid in my tank can't harm my pool or guests, even if it all got dumped in. So each acid-doser user might want to calculate the threshold for their own pool (somehow?), and then decide the max amount of acid to keep in their tank at any given time...

Before I purchased, I found some reviews of Pentair's IntellipH that reported the IpH could not dose enough acid for their pool. Calls to Pentair tech support revealed that the IpH system can only dose so much, no matter what, and that was by design. Also, that there is nothing a user can do to easily override the built in protections (not without modifying the way it works). So Pentair's controller firmware, the smallish size of the tank and the manual's instructions to dilute the acid 1:1 are all Pentair's way of protecting the consumer (and Pentair, of course) from the IpH ruining a pool. My settings are such that I'm at 80% or so output, and it has to run for seven hours to achieve what my pool needs. It's a small pool, so I can see for myself that the IntellipH is a bit underpowered, and so not readily capable of blasting a pool into oblivion...

 

[Derb22]

Well thinking about the math and numbers. I’m one gallon a week and three weeks in so down to roughly 17 gallons of mix or 8 1/2 gallons of acid. If it takes 16 to acid wash your pool I would need 32 plus. It makes me feel better about the remote possibility of it happening. And perhaps I will keep it to 10 gallons of MA mixes with water each time rather than the full 30 I could do.

 

[dfattfp]

Well, I thought I did it. I wired in the new really to J17, Hooked up the new power supply, looked good to me. See Dropbox - 20181021_130244.jpg

Then I set a schedule for the Aux Extra and waited. The time came and all it did was trip the circuit breaker. Does anyone know why that may be. I ended up using 18awg solid wire for the power supply because 12 wouldn't fit, 14 wouldn't fit unless I hammered it down, and 16 didn't exist at the store. Also, I didn't connect the middle #3 connector of the power supply to ground since I borrowed a screw from where the transformer is plugged in so the case should be grounded (I guess I could test it). Is that okay or should I need to use the special #3 terminal?

Thanks.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Well, I thought I did it. I wired in the new really to J17, Hooked up the new power supply, looked good to me. See Dropbox - 20181021_130244.jpg

Then I set a schedule for the Aux Extra and waited. The time came and all it did was trip the circuit breaker. Does anyone know why that may be. I ended up using 18awg solid wire for the power supply because 12 wouldn't fit, 14 wouldn't fit unless I hammered it down, and 16 didn't exist at the store. Also, I didn't connect the middle #3 connector of the power supply to ground since I borrowed a screw from where the transformer is plugged in so the case should be grounded (I guess I could test it). Is that okay or should I need to use the special #3 terminal?

Thanks.

You cannot steal half of the 240 volts from a GFCI breaker to make 120 volts. It will blow the GFCI every time..

You will need to power the power supply you added with 120 volts from a different breaker and not use the pump/filter relay.

Jim R.

 

[dfattfp]

ok, I was wondering if it was the GFCI detecting something. thanks for confirming.

on the technical side, how does that work with using 120v causes it to be unbalanced or it detects difference between the two 120's ?

TIA!!