JPMorgan

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May 22, 2018
692
Elmhurst, IL
Pool Size
60000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Liquid Chlorine
We have an Aquasol Controller on our pool. The pH reading is straightforward, i.e., 7.5, 7.6, etc. However, the sanitizer reading is an ORP reading, i.e., 650, 700. What is ORP and is there any simple way to convert ORP to ppm of chlorine/ bromine?
 
ORP stands for Oxidation Reduction Potential. It is a measure for the ability to oxidise or reduce things. Chemically that means that electrons get transferred which is where the units "mV" make sense.

Chlorine is the oxidiser in the pool you are interested in, but an ORP sensor can't distinguish where the "signal" comes from, which makes a 100% correct conversion between ORP and FC (or better HOCl, we all know that in the presence of CYA, FC is meaningless, which is why the TFP method is based on the FC/CYA ratio as a proxy for HOCl).

The sensors also tend to get fouled in the presence of CYA which makes their use together with the TFP method challenging. Automated chlorine dosing or SWG systems usually specify in the manual CYA to be very low.

In regards to a conversion formula have a look at the following post. But you have to take that with a grain of salt, the constants in the formula need to get adjusted for the individual system. You may be able to fit the formula to your system based on FAS-DPD FC measurements. I don't know how stable that would be over time or change in parameters like CYA, salt or whatever.

Welcome to TFP! :wave:

If you use slow-dissolving chlorine tablets, then they are Trichlor and for every 10 ppm FC they also increase CYA by 6 ppm. See this thread that seems to indicate that CYA is measured in some test kits available in Singapore and that both granular chlorine and tablets of Trichlor are available.

As for ORP the precise relationship to FC varies by sensor model and manufacturer and the readings can be impacted by hydrogen gas bubbles in saltwater chlorine generator systems, by sunlight, and by the presence of organic material in the pool that has nothing at all to do with the rate of disinfection that is determined primarily by the FC/CYA ratio. It is also inversely affected by temperature in a way that is the opposite of chlorine's effectiveness and is affected by pH beyond actual hypochlorous acid levels. Such ORP sensors typically get fouled by higher CYA levels and being a logarithmic scale they go wild with noise at lower ORP levels associated with lower FC/CYA ratios (so typically higher CYA levels).

This post gives a couple of HOCl and pH to ORP formulas while this post gives even more (though I wouldn't trust the Aquarius or Sensorex sensors) and this post shows how wildly scattered real ORP readings are in pools where 23% of pools with more than one sensor varied by 100 mV or more which is roughly a factor of 16 difference in FC all else equal!

As for approximating HOCl levels in pools, you can roughly use half the FC/CYA ratio for that. If there is no CYA in the water at all, then you can use roughly half the FC level if the pH is near 7.5.

Basically, you shouldn't try and use a fixed formula and instead should just report ORP and allow the user to MANUALLY create a setpoint to maintain that ORP. You should then separately and independently maintain the pH at a constant level using a separate pH sensor and pH chemical dosing system. That way, if the pool water temperature is maintained, the ORP can be used for process control though it will still need to be checked (compared against actual measured FC) regularly. In the U.S., states require such cross-correlation checking several times per day if ORP systems are used. ORP is not generally allowed to be relied upon by itself.

As for approximating a delta FC vs. ORP with all else equal, the rough relationship can be expressed as a certain number of millivolts of ORP per doubling of FC. For the Chemtrol sensor, this is roughly 22 mV/(2xFC) while for Oakton it is roughly 28 mV/(2xFC). So once you have a setpoint for a given FC you can approximate the delta in FC. For example, let's say that you set 3 ppm FC with 30 ppm CYA that reads as 683 mV on the Chemtrol. If the ORP drops by 22 mV to 661 mV then this means that the FC has dropped by half to around 1.5 ppm FC. Likewise if the ORP rises by 22 mV to 705 mV, then the FC has roughly doubled to 6.0 ppm FC. In reality the FC numbers are 1.65 and 5.2 because it's HOCl and not FC that affects ORP and the FC/CYA ratio is not a perfect proxy for HOCl at different ratios (though it's close enough for rough work). So the following formula could be used generically and you just need to find the actual factor that is involved at a given temperature, pH, and CYA level:

ORP = k1 + k2*ln(FC)
FC = e(ORP - k1)/k2

where you can find k2 by seeing how ORP varies with changes in FC as follows:
d(ORP)/d(FC) = k2/FC0
or
k2 = FC0 * d(ORP)/d(FC)
or better yet if you can't measure small incremental differences:
ORP2 - ORP1 = k2*(ln(FC2) - ln(FC1))
so
k2 = d(ORP) / d(ln(FC))

and then find k1 at a given setpoint. After that, you can use the FC formula as a function of ORP with your k1 and k2 constants to try and adjust dosing. Here's an example of some readings one might get from a Chemtrol sensor at two points at 85ºF, pH 7.5, CYA 30 ppm:

FC ... ORP
3.0 ... 683
4.0 ... 694

k2 = (694-683)/(ln(4.0)-ln(3.0)) = 38.2
k1 = 683 - 38.2*ln(3.0) = 641
k1 = 694 - 38.2*ln(4.0) = 641

so the following are rough formulas relating ORP and FC for the Chemtrol under the conditions I stated:
ORP = 641 + 38.5*ln(FC)
FC = e(ORP - 641)/38.5

the mV per doubling of FC (ignoring some non-linearity of FC/CYA vs. HOCl) is 38.5*ln(2) = 26.7 mV. My earlier 22 mV/doubling statement was at higher active chlorine levels when no CYA is present. When CYA is present, higher FC raises HOCl a little more than just proportionally.

Does that help?
 
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Was trying to determine how I could record ppm of FC by reading the ORP Meter, but it looks more complicated than that.

Next question.... Based on what I've read ORP should be between 650 and 750. In our pool it stays on the low end... just a little above 650 and often below that. I have lowered pH a bit (7.4), which is supposed to increase ORP, but I haven't seen much difference...maybe a little higher. Should I be concerned about ORP below 650? What does a low(er) reading indicate? Does that mean it's time to shock the pool? This is an indoor pool and I am maintaining bromine level at around 5-6. Typically I shock every couple of weeks with liquid chlorine. Thoughts?
 
Don't be too hung up about a specific ORP value, it varies too much across different sensors and specific pool water composition. It's not only dependent on FC.

Determine the required FC for your CYA according to the recommended FC/CYA Levels, and ensure that reach your target with FAS/DPD testing. Then use ORP to maintain that level. But keep testing pH, CYA and FC (FAS/DPD) to ensure that the ORP signal doesn't drift away over time.
 
Determine the required FC for your CYA according to the recommended FC/CYA Levels, and ensure that reach your target with FAS/DPD testing. Then use ORP to maintain that level. But keep testing pH, CYA and FC (FAS/DPD) to ensure that the ORP signal doesn't drift away over time.
So... this is a bromine pool, so no CYA... but I assume the same principles you noted above apply. In other words, get the bromine level where I want it (5-6 ppm) and then check the ORP reading... and then use that reading in my daily monitoring to ensure bromine is at the desired level. If I set the Controller to give me 6 ppm of bromine in the pool and ORP is reading 625 at that level, then I should only be concerned if ORP drops well below 625. Right?

If it does drop below my base level, what does that indicate.... turn the dial up to get more sanitizer in the pool.... or time to give the pool a shock?

I guess what I'm trying to accomplish here is to be able to look at the ORP reading on the Controller without having to test for bromine every day and know that the sanitizer is where I want it to be. So if I'm seeing a 625 ORP reading, then I should assume 6 ppm of bromine in the pool (in example above) without having to necessarily test for bromine daily. Does that sound right?

Thanks for your help on this. :)
 
I'm not really familiar with bromine pools, but I guess it's the same. What's the reason for bromine?

Is this an indoor pool? I would assume quite high sanitiser demand without CYA otherwise?

Chlorine pools never really need shocking if proper target levels are maintained continuously, I would assume the same for bromine. Indication for a SLAM (maintaining shock level until problem fixed) is usually abnormal sanitiser demand and/or a green pool.

I'd test and log for a while to verify how much you can rely on ORP as a proxy for bromine in your case.
 
I'm not really familiar with bromine pools, but I guess it's the same. What's the reason for bromine?

Is this an indoor pool? I would assume quite high sanitiser demand without CYA otherwise?

Chlorine pools never really need shocking if proper target levels are maintained continuously, I would assume the same for bromine. Indication for a SLAM (maintaining shock level until problem fixed) is usually abnormal sanitiser demand and/or a green pool.

I'd test and log for a while to verify how much you can rely on ORP as a proxy for bromine in your case.
Yes.... it is an indoor pool. It is a condo pool and it was bromine when I got here 1 1/2 years ago. It seems to work well, but downside is that it's a little more expensive.

Right now I am maintaining bromine at 6 ppm and ORP is consistently reading 670, so I think I can use that ORP reading as the equivalent of 6 ppm bromine. If I start to see ORP dropping (below 650), I can test and see where the bromine is at. Question is.... what to do at that point. Automatic Feeder and Aquasol Controller should maintain bromine at 6 ppm. If I get 6 ppm reading when testing and ORP is dropping is that indicative of any action to be taken, i.e., shocking?

Any thoughts on shocking with liquid chlorine vs MSP?
 
Since it's a condo pool, it's probably considered a public pool by your local jurisdiction. They probably have their own requirements on what you can and can't do as far as water treatment. It would be prudent to check with them first.
 
As I said, I am not familiar with bromine and I also don't know your local regulations that may be applicable in your case. I agree with proavia's advice.
 
I'm also not familiar with indoor pools. Residential outdoor pools rarely ever need "shocking" as the bather load is low, and chlorine at recommended FC/CYA Levels combined with UV from the sun sufficient to keep CC at zero.

An indoor pool in a Condo complex will have a higher bather load and no natural UV, so CC (or CB in your case) will build up, and I am not sure if that would be reflected in ORP readings.

I don't think there is a way around at least daily testing in your case, might even be demanded by your applicable local code.
 

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