Wiring help - No neutral wires on breakers

[ajw22]

The first stipulation for 18 AWG conductors states that continuous loads shall not exceed 5.6A.

Likewise, the first stipulation for 16 AWG conductors states that continuous loads shall not exceed 8A.

That is basically the 80% rule that applies to all size breakers.

The continous load on a breaker shall be a maximum of 80% of its rating. Although the NEC states it as the breaker shall be 1.25X the continuous load.

 

[OolDad]

Do the lights currently work or are they defective?

The spa light works, pool light is not working. It looks like it was pretty new, but it was hit by fault current and/or surge in September. It worked fine before that.

I swapped out the 20A for a 15A on the lights, and installed the GFCI on the pump/blower. Also opened up the junction box. Wiring is as expected, though the bonding wire seems odd to me. The Spa wire is hard to see in the pic, but I tried to draw in the routing.

Bonding question: There are 2 bonding wires (red nut) that go into the conduits for each of the lights, but they are just connected to each other in the junction box. The bonding wire in the pool light conduit goes all the way to the pool and is free-floating behind the fixture. Should that be connected to anything? As far as the Spa bonding wire, I don't recall seeing that at all at the light end when I changed the bulb last year. (There's almost no extra wire in the Spa though, so that may be why I didn't see it - had to drain the spa into the pool to change the bulb.)

 

[JamesW]

The junction box has to be listed for use as a swimming pool light junction box.

Yours is not code compliant.

The junction box needs to be replaced.

If the junction box is not made for two lights, you will need to use separate junction boxes for each light.

The Pentair junction box has a single terminal for a #8 wire and a single connection with a strain relief.

For a 120 volt light, you need to have a #8 supplemental ground.

The grounds connect to the grounding terminals.

(b) Nonmetallic Conduit. Where a nonmetallic conduit is used, an 8 AWG insulated solid or stranded copper bonding jumper shall be installed in this conduit unless a listed low-voltage lighting system not requiring grounding is used. The bonding jumper shall be terminated in the forming shell, junction box or transformer enclosure, or ground fault circuit-interrupter enclosure. The termination of the 8 AWG bonding jumper in the forming shell shall be covered with, or encapsulated in, a listed potting compound to protect the connection from the possible deteriorating effect of pool water.

https://www.pentair.com/content/dam/extranet/nam/product-related/product-manuals/pool-and-spa-equipment/light-accessories/Junction_Box_JB_750_Operating_Procedures_English.pdf

 

[JamesW]

a. 120 VAC pool/spa lights must be connected to a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI), with an appropriately rated circuit breaker. See Figure 1.

For Canada, 120 and 12 VAC lights must have a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI), and have an appropriately rated circuit breaker.

b. The Junction Box (or 12 volt light models, the low voltage transformer) must be located at least 8 in (20.32 cm) above the maximum water level and at least 4 in (10.2 cm) above the ground level or pool deck whichever provides the greater elevation.

The junction box shall be no less than 4 ft (1.22 m) from the inside wall of the pool, unless separated from the pool by a solid fence, wall or other permanent barrier. See Figure 1.

The Junction Box should also be located at least 48 in (122 cm) minimum (3 m (10 ft.) Canada) from the edge of the pool, see Figure 1.

c. The light fixture and all metal items within 5 ft. (153 cm) minimum of the pool must be properly electrically bonded.

d. Bond the niche-fixture housing to all other metallic items within 5 ft (1.53 m) of the pool, using a No. 8 AWG bond wire.

The Bond connection is located at the rear of the niche, see Figure 1.

e. The wet niche is properly installed so the top edge of the underwater light's lens is at least 18 in (45.7 cm) - (CANADA: 600 mm max to the centerline of the lens), below the surface of the water in the pool, see Figure 1.

Also, the face ring PILOT SCREW must be at the 12 o'clock position.

f. If non-metallic conduit is used, a No. 8 AWG bonding/grounding wire must be installed through the conduit from the Junction Box to the bonding/grounding lug inside the niche.

Seal the wire/lug connection with a listed sealant to protect the connection from possible pool water corrosion. See Figure 1.

Note: Use only Pentair wet niches to insure proper bonding and grounding connections.

2. To be certain that the pool’s electrical system meets all applicable requirements, the electrician should also consult the local building department.

3. Position Junction Box to meet National Electrical Code (NEC) requirements and to prevent hazard to personnel.

4. The center conduit hub is provided with a strain relief for a cord size up to a 10/3 AWG cord. Use underwater lights with water resistant cord only.

5. Three equipment grounding terminals are provided for internal grounding suitable for #16 AWG to #10 AWG wire.

One pressure wire grounding terminal is provided for a #8 AWG insulated copper bonding wire.

E42917 for Pentair Water Pool and Spa Inc | UL Solutions

productiq.ulprospector.com

 

[1poolman1]

The spa light works, pool light is not working. It looks like it was pretty new, but it was hit by fault current and/or surge in September. It worked fine before that.

I swapped out the 20A for a 15A on the lights, and installed the GFCI on the pump/blower. Also opened up the junction box. Wiring is as expected, though the bonding wire seems odd to me. The Spa wire is hard to see in the pic, but I tried to draw in the routing.

Bonding question: There are 2 bonding wires (red nut) that go into the conduits for each of the lights, but they are just connected to each other in the junction box. The bonding wire in the pool light conduit goes all the way to the pool and is free-floating behind the fixture. Should that be connected to anything? As far as the Spa bonding wire, I don't recall seeing that at all at the light end when I changed the bulb last year. (There's almost no extra wire in the Spa though, so that may be why I didn't see it - had to drain the spa into the pool to change the bulb.)

View attachment 462021

View attachment 462022

Is there actually a ground wire in that enclosure? If not, you need one ASAP. If so, even though that is not a code-compliant j-box, the bond and ground wires should all be connected. Get and install a proper box soon to be safest. If you look at JamesW's photo, you will see where the bond and ground wires would be connected through the brass of the j-box. The other end of the bond wires are attached in the light niche to the bond lug and should be encapsulated .

 

[OolDad]

Is there actually a ground wire in that enclosure? If not, you need one ASAP. If so, even though that is not a code-compliant j-box, the bond and ground wires should all be connected. Get and install a proper box soon to be safest. If you look at JamesW's photo, you will see where the bond and ground wires would be connected through the brass of the j-box. The other end of the bond wires are attached in the light niche to the bond lug and should be encapsulated .

Thanks, I'll look for a lug in the niche when I change the fixture. I believe it's a Hayward niche. What would I use to encapsulate it? Butyl tape?

The ground goes from the panel ground bus to the wire nut that connects to both lights, but I don't believe the ground is connected to the bonding wires in the j-box.

 

[JamesW]

The connector and wire termination must be encapsulated in 3M Inc. Scotch Cast Wet Niche Potting Compound No. 2135 (UL File E130394) or equivalent to protect such connection from the possible deteriorating effect of pool water

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/p/d/b00040018/

AquaBond Pool Light Potting Compound | Wet Niche Potting Compound

Save up to 70 percent on pool light potting compound costs with UL listed AquaBond® AB-1000 Wet Niche Potting Compound for swimming pools and spas!

aquabondadhesives.com

 

[JamesW]

https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/783135O/3m-scotchcast-potting-kit-2136-data-sheet.pdf

 

[OolDad]

https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/783135O/3m-scotchcast-potting-kit-2136-data-sheet.pdf

Is there something I can use under water, or do I have to remove the niche? I should probably change the 8 AWG bonding wire first if it's been sitting in the pool without being encapsulated?

 

[1poolman1]

Is there something I can use under water, or do I have to remove the niche? I should probably change the 8 AWG bonding wire first if it's been sitting in the pool without being encapsulated?

No need to change the wire and it is, likely, already encapsulated, attached at the back of the niche, inside behind the light.
The encapsulation is only over the bond lug, the rest of the wire is in the water, along with the light cable, that is in the conduit.

 

[OolDad]

No need to change the wire and it is, likely, already encapsulated, attached at the back of the niche, inside behind the light.
The encapsulation is only over the bond lug, the rest of the wire is in the water, along with the light cable, that is in the conduit.

Hope it is encapsulated, that would be nice. Otherwise I imagine I would need to drain the pool past the niche, or remove the niche if possible. The wire is a covered green wire, not bare. I'll get in there and see once I get some pull cord or the new light. I'll probably use pull cord first so I can see if I need to pull a new bonding wire with the light wire. Should also help me measure so I don't need to pull 100' if I only need 15'.

Ordering both the Pentair and Intermatic junction boxes, hard to tell online what will work better.

Is it possible the spa bonding wire doesn't go to the j-box, but rather to a bonding lug somewhere in between that then runs to the j-box?

 

[OolDad]

Size 18 and 16 AWG copper conductors were added to the 2008 edition of the NEC.

The overcurrent device shall not exceed 7A for an 18 AWG copper conductor and 10A for a 16 AWG copper conductor.

Besides the provisions for the overcurrent device’s maximum ampacity, 18 and 16 AWG conductors have additional stipulations.

The first stipulation for 18 AWG conductors states that continuous loads shall not exceed 5.6A.

Likewise, the first stipulation for 16 AWG conductors states that continuous loads shall not exceed 8A.

Do these overcurrent devices even exist? I just opened the Hayward Astrolight (W3SP0582SL100) and saw it is #16/3 AWG. I don't see a 10A GFCI available anywhere.

 

[JamesW]

I have not seen a 10 amp GFCI breaker.

They are usually 15 amps for lights.

Because the light is a listed appliance or luminaire, the wire that comes with the light can be 16 gauge up to 100 feet long on a 15 or 20 amp breaker.

Field supplied wire has to be at least 14 gauge for a 15 amp breaker.

 

[JamesW]

When using a Ground Fault Circuit Breaker (GFCB): A 15 amp GFCB can be installed into the Pro Logic's subpanel to power up to 8 ColorLogic lights (see page 4).

https://hayward-pool-assets.com/assets/documents/pools/pdf/manuals/ColorLogic-AQL-COLOR-MODHV.pdf

 

[JamesW]

240.5 Protection of Flexible Cords, Flexible Cables, and Fixture Wires

(1) Supply Cord of Listed Appliance or Luminaire

Where flexible cord or tinsel cord is approved for and used with a specific listed appliance or luminaire, it shall be considered to be protected when applied within the appliance or luminaire listing requirements.

For the purposes of this section, a luminaire may be either portable or permanent.

(2) Fixture Wire

Fixture wire shall be permitted to be tapped to the branch-circuit conductor of a branch circuit in accordance with the following:

15- or 20-ampere circuits — 18 AWG, up to 15 m (50 ft) of run length

15- or 20-ampere circuits — 16 AWG, up to 30 m (100 ft) of run length

20-ampere circuits — 14 AWG and larger

30-ampere circuits — 14 AWG and larger

40-ampere circuits — 12 AWG and larger

50-ampere circuits — 12 AWG and larger

 

[OolDad]

The connector and wire termination must be encapsulated

No need to change the wire and it is, likely, already encapsulated, attached at the back of the niche, inside behind the light.

Turns out the niche isn't what I thought it was, or it may have been cemented over at some point. The bonding wire is loose, not encapsulated (and not bare).



It looks like this is where the bonding wire is supposed to be connected, but it is filled in with cement and a screw/lug cannot be added as is. I may be able to drain the pool below the niche and go at the cement with a chisel or something until I can screw in and encapsulate the bonding. Not sure that would actually do anything with the way this niche is though. Any suggestions?



This also means I have to get a different light for the smaller niche.
Edit: ordered an open-box Pentair Intellibrite 120v (and will change the engine after it burns out in 2-4 weeks).

 

[1poolman1]

Turns out the niche isn't what I thought it was, or it may have been cemented over at some point. The bonding wire is loose, not encapsulated (and not bare).

View attachment 464087

It looks like this is where the bonding wire is supposed to be connected, but it is filled in with cement and a screw/lug cannot be added as is. I may be able to drain the pool below the niche and go at the cement with a chisel or something until I can screw in and encapsulate the bonding. Not sure that would actually do anything with the way this niche is though. Any suggestions?

View attachment 464088

This also means I have to get a different light for the smaller niche. I'm currently at 120v for both pool and spa lights. I'm thinking I can get a Pentair Intellibrite 120v to keep it simple (and change the engine in the future if needed), or I can get a 12v Pooltone light (in which case I would probably also change the spa bulb to a 12v and put both lights downstream of a transformer because they currently share ground and neutral). Any better solutions/thoughts?

Not sure what brand of niche that is, but you might be able to drill that bond lug and install a stainless screw into it to capture the bond wire.
If not, the niche itself is rather thin. I have a friend in the business who has used a 1/2" self-tapping stainless screw to attach a standard bond lug to the back of a niche, re-attach the wire and encapsulate. Has always passed inspection. He does re-finishing of commercial pools and finds the bond wire loose many times, just like yours, with the bond lug gone. Obviously, he has the pool drained for the re-finish so it is easier to do the work. You would need to get some of that plaster off the niche and would likely have to drill a small starter hole for the screw. The encapsulation material would also seal the niche from leaking. Those lugs are available at Home Depot. The bond wire does not need to be bare.