Whole house power question

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The variable speed pump can induce noise and that might be interfering with the Insteon, but I suspect that the problem with the LEDs is probably not related to the noise, but it might be.

The first thing is to figure out the low voltage.

If the service entrance voltage is below 228 or if A to neutral and B to neutral are not equal and 1/2 of the total, call the power company and report it for a service call.

If the voltage is above 228 and A to neutral and B to neutral are the same and half of the total, look inside the house for the issue.
 
JamesW said:
OK, but the LEDs are not on Powerline.

The voltage is too low, which indicates a problem with the power supply or the neutrals or maybe a breaker or a switch is going bad.

What switch is used to turn the LEDs on and off?

Are the LEDs on a dimmer switch?
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The LED lights in the basement, and virtually all of the lights in my house are on Insteon Dimmers (item 2476 or 2477) or more recently Kara HS220 dimmers. They are all supposed to be LED compatible. And the problems are most noticeable in the basement but occur on occasion in pretty much every room of the house now, with varying frequency. Only constant is it only happens when pool pump runs (but the voltage did not increase with pump off, at least in the one spot I tested earlier). I will test more today and tomorrow.
 
The dimmers and the bulbs have to be certified as dimmer and LED compatible or you can get a flicker.

The low voltage can exacerbate the issue if the dimmers and bulbs are not both dimmer rated.
 
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pgershon said:
I invested a lot of time and energy into this issue two years ago trying to fix my insteon issues, but gave up without success and have been trying to remove Insteon devices in the house as they fail.
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This may or may not be a non-issue, as Insteon recently went belly up. There is a group that is trying to resurrect the company, but they've announced no specifics. And it remains to be seen, of course, whether they will be successful. So replacing Insteon might ultimately be your best bet. Unfortunately, I have yet to find another protocol that works as well. So I'm sticking it out with my current system and the few spares I have "in stock." Fingers crossed.

That said, I've had Insteon noise issues across two houses and have been chasing a solution for decades. What finally worked was (1) installing Insteon filters (FilterLinc) on anything electronic (TV and receivers, computers, etc); and (2) replacing all older devices with the "newer" dual-band models. The dual-band models will still use the power line on occasion, but primarily use RF to communicate. As part of that upgrade I installed several RF devices that basically bridge the RF signals and the power line signals, and I also installed a special Insteon device that wires to each leg of my 240V panel, that bridges the two power-line legs.

I'm not sure which of all those steps actually solved the problem, but I strongly suspect it was getting rid of the older non-dual-band devices. My system is now almost 100% reliable (there is still a few random glitches every once in a while, but I've addressed those with programming tricks, so "virtually" 100% reliable).

But unfortunately, unless Insteon resurrects itself, I doubt you'll find any popular Insteon devices for sale, unless they are priced outrageously. Worse still, is the Insteon filters I mentioned are 120V. I don't think they ever made a 240V version. Regarding the pump interference, since there is a type of filter that works for Insteon signals, perhaps there is something non-Insteon-brand that can do the same for 240V. But sorry, I don't know enough about the protocol to suggest what to look for, other than trial and error. eBay still has a FilterLink for sale, just to show you what I'm referencing.
www.ebay.com

X10 Smarthome/Insteon FilterLinc #1626-10 Plug-In Noise Filte r ~ Used/Warranrty 718122395118 | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for X10 Smarthome/Insteon FilterLinc #1626-10 Plug-In Noise Filte r ~ Used/Warranrty at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
www.ebay.com

The trick might be to call manufacturers of power line filters and conditioners in hopes of finding some geeky tech guy that is familiar enough with the Insteon protocol and whether their brand of filter can help. It's a long shot, but that's what I'd be doing if I had the same issue. Which, by the way, I don't:

I run the IntelliFlo and it doesn't seem to cause any issue for my house or my Insteon network. I do have one intermittent flickering set of LED bulbs, in one fixture. It happens at night, when the IntelliFlo is off, so it's not that. I've been assuming it was a bad bulb or fixture. I just haven't gotten around to figuring it out, yet.

If you need any details about what I described, I'd be happy to help...
 
JamesW said:
The dimmers and the bulbs have to be certified as dimmer compatible or you can get a flicker.

The low voltage can exacerbate the issue if the dimmers and bulbs are not both dimmer rated.
Click to expand...
@pgershon, this is a possibility, of course, depending on the bulbs' driver. But in my experience the Insteon dimmers do not cause flickering with any of my LED bulbs or LED light strips, and I have several different brands of each. Not definitive, but I'll put it this way: there are LED lights that work well with Insteon dimmers. I've always chosen LED lights that claim to be dimmable, but I've never researched exactly what that means for my particular set of dimmers. I bring 'em home, light 'em up, and if they work they stay. (Scientific!) ;)
 
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JamesW said:
The dimmers and the bulbs have to be certified as dimmer compatible or you can get a flicker.

The low voltage can exacerbate the issue if the dimmers and bulbs are not both dimmer rated.
Click to expand...
Looks like people report the insteon dimmers dim LED but they are only officially rated for incandescent bulbs. The bulbs and Kara dimmers are all certified for LED.
 
pgershon said:
The LED lights in the basement, and virtually all of the lights in my house are on Insteon Dimmers
Click to expand...

Do the LED lights not connected through the Insteon devices exhibit the same flickering?

Take a LED light that flickers and remove the Insteon device and see if it still flicker.
 
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Maybe noise from the pump is interfering with the Insteon dimmer causing it to flicker?

You can replace the dimmer with an On/Off switch to see if that makes any difference.
 
ajw22 said:
Do the LED lights not connected through the Insteon devices exhibit the same flickering?

Take a LED light that flickers and remove the Insteon device and see if it still flicker.
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Easier said than done. Virtually all of my lights are insteon and the flickering is intermittent, so the fact that the lights on Kasa (TP-Link, not insteon, controlled by wifi) do not flicker is not diagnostic (just not enough of them). I can change three dimmers in my exercise room to Kara switches and see if teh lights flicker when I work out tomorrow (I am in the room long enough generally to see two or three flicker events - about once every 15-30 mins).

And to be clear about what I call flickering - the dimmers are all set to 100% power. What I have been calling a flicker is really just a momentary blink - lights go off and on for a split second. Just enough to irritate someone trying to concentrate, but usually not noticed.
 

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pgershon said:
Virtually all of my lights are insteon and the flickering is intermittent, so the fact that the lights on Kasa (TP-Link, not insteon, controlled by wifi) do not flicker is not diagnostic (just not enough of them).
Click to expand...

The more you describe it the more it sounds like the Insteons are causing the light blink/flicker.
 
I went to the breaker that controls the lights in the exercise room. Looked at the main going in and its 240V. Looked at the breaker going to the exercise room and its at 120V. So for whatever reason, the fixture I tested is getting only 104/105V. Could be the dimmer. I looked at the fixture on the neighboring dimmer (there are three switches on the box) and its gets 106V - seemingly same issue. Compared pump on and pump off and voltage is the same. Verified that wine cellar A/C is not on same circuit. Opened the switches and verified 119V coming in. So dimmer must be sending less than 120V to the fixture - which means that it is dimming even at 100%. Going to install the non-insteon switches for this room and see what happens. I will post again
 
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Many retrofit LED lamps are sold in two versions; dimmable and non-dimmable.

You will need to choose the correct type for your lighting circuit.

You can use a dimmable LED lamp in a non-dimmable circuit.

You should NOT use a non-dimmable lamp in a dimmable circuit as it may cause damage to the lamp and or circuit.

Integral lamps are clearly marked as dimmable or non-dimmable on the packaging and on the lamp.

Matching old and new

Most dimmers installed today are designed to be used with high-power circuits to drive traditional filament lamps which were all quite uniform and dimmable by just a voltage change.

LED lamps on the other hand are low-power and more complex.

An LED bulb is a solid-state product that has built in circuitry (called a driver) that takes high-voltage AC input current and converts it to low-voltage DC current to drive the LEDs.

Furthermore driver specifications are not uniform across the LED industry.

They are many different types of dimmers installed in homes and offices of various specifications (e.g. resistive; leading-edge and trailing-edge and electronic).

So when using new LED lamps with existing dimmers there is a matching of old technology with new which can be challenging.

The driver in dimmable LED lamps may work with many types of dimmer but not all, for instance LED lamps tend to work better with trailing-edge dimmers rather than leading-edge dimmers, but an existing dimmer may have a minimum load that is too high for an LED lamp, e.g. A 60W filament lamp may use a dimmer that has a minimum load of 25W the replacement LED has a power rating of 6.5W - below the level required by the dimmer.

Dedicated LED dimmers have a very low minimum power rating.

The dimming experience can be different with LED.

Overall the LED dimming performance is regulated by the capability of the LED driver/chip and the compatibility of the dimming circuit.

Since there are a huge number of possible combinations of lamps and dimmer, it is very difficult to produce an LED lamp that works in all dimming environments.

LED currently have a lower dimming range than a filament lamp – LEDs currently dim down to about 10% of the total light output whereas filaments may go down to 1-2%.

Some of the issues that may occur when a dimmer is incompatible with an LED lamp are:

Flickering - Lamps will flicker (can also occur if a non-dimmable lamp is used)

Drop-out - No light output at the end of the scale

Dead travel - When the dimmer is adjusted there is no matching change in light output (light may not dim to acceptable level)

Not smooth - Light output may not go from dim to bright linearly

Multiple lamps - issues may become apparent when multiple lamps are added

Damage or failure - LED driver, circuit or LED is damaged or fails.

Load below minimum - The power load of the LED lamp is below the minimum required by the dimmer

Mixed models- Different models of LED will likely have different drivers - since drivers behave differently this could result in dimming issues.
Click to expand...

Dimmable and Non-Dimmable LED lamps | Integral LED

integral-led.com integral-led.com
 
 
You might have multiple issues including the dimmer switches and the noise created by the VSP pump.

If you don’t use the dimming feature, maybe just use an On/Off switch and not a dimmer switch.

Insteon dimmers are "forward phase" dimmers so when dealing with lighting manufacturers, make sure they are compatible with forward phase triac dimming.

We've found that the Philips warm glow bulbs seem to "play nice" with most smart dimmers including Insteon.

If you're stuck in a position where you can't change the LED light to solve flickering problems, you can try checking to see if there is any AC noise causing the electronics to be unstable.

It may not be the dimmer or bulb's fault but rather some noisy, cheaply made power supply of some sort.
Click to expand...


 
It looks like Insteon used to have their own LED bulbs.

Maybe contact Insteon to see which bulbs work best with their dimmers.

Maybe just go to a regular dimmer and not an Insteon type dimmer.

www.cnet.com

Insteon LED Bulb review: Value and usability shine with this smart bulb

It's programmable, it's dimmable, it's smartphone-friendly, and it'll last you 20 years.
www.cnet.com www.cnet.com

LED Bulbs — Insteon

Insteon LED Bulb (2672-222) (2672) Insteon LED Bulb for Recessed Lights (2674-222) (2674)
www.insteon.com www.insteon.com

 
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JamesW said:
It looks like Insteon used to have their own LED bulbs.
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They did. But they were not to be dimmed with Insteon dimmers (in the traditional sense). The bulbs themselves responded to Insteon commands, and could be controlled in various ways to dim themselves. So while they could be used in place of an Insteon dimmer, they would not be dimmed by one. It's a bit confusing, any Insteon device can be a master to, or a slave of, any other Insteon device. So you could dim an Insteon bulb with an Insteon dimmer, but the latter would only be sending commands to the bulb, not actually reducing the voltage to the bulb. In the case of the OP's issue, replacing his LED lights with Insteon lights would not be the solution, not unless he also removed the Insteon dimmer on that circuit and replaced it with an on-off switch.

JamesW said:
Maybe contact Insteon to see which bulbs work best with their dimmers.
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Insteon has gone belly up. There is a group trying to salvage it, but I doubt they are at the stage where they could offer individual customer support. You could try, but don't hold your breath.
 
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