Waterfall woes

[Jimrahbe]

Rod,

I assume the above-ground check valve is connected to the skimmer line.. If that is true, when you run all skimmer you are sucking air in from the waterfall pump. This is one reason you can't have two pumps sucking from the same source. As a test, glue a cap on the cutoff waterfall line and I bet your skimmer issues go away.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Rodex]

Rod,

I assume the above-ground check valve is connected to the skimmer line.. If that is true, when you run all skimmer you are sucking air in from the waterfall pump. This is one reason you can't have two pumps sucking from the same source. As a test, glue a cap on the cutoff waterfall line and I bet your skimmer issues go away.

Thanks,

Jim R.

Yes, that other choke valve is right above the tee on the skimmer line.

Makes sense - instead of gluing it on, can I Saran Wrap one on?

 

[Jimrahbe]

Sure, try it..

Jim R.

 

[Rodex]

So…totally got the operation of the three way valve backwards. The skimmer side is the one without the choke valve. The main drain side is the one with the choke valve above ground and where the waterfall is plumbed via the underground choke valve.

The skimmer side is chattering real bad when it’s at max rpms.

The main drain side definitely leaks through the underground choke valve.

Still puts me in a weird spot - if I plumb the main pump to the skimmer line only, it chatter really bad and is clearly pulling air in.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Rod,

I can't think of any reason that your skimmer line would "chatter"...

Tell me more.. What chatters? It could be simply that the 3-way valve is leaking air or broken inside.

Also.. if the chatter only happens at full speed, then why run full speed at all? I run my IntelliFlo at 1200 RPM most of the time and never at anywhere near full speed.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Rodex]

Rod,

I can't think of any reason that your skimmer line would "chatter"...

Tell me more.. What chatters? It could be simply that the 3-way valve is leaking air or broken inside.

Also.. if the chatter only happens at full speed, then why run full speed at all? I run my IntelliFlo at 1200 RPM most of the time and never at anywhere near full speed.

Thanks,

Jim R.

The pressure side chatters - the pipes are moving 1/2” in either direction as they vibrate. It’s quite bad. It seems like it’s sucking in a bunch of air, relaxing, then sucking in a bunch more air.

At low speeds, there is still air coming in. The air bubble under the lid is huge.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Rod,

I suspect that your 3-way valve is bad.

So even when you think the valve is set to "Only skimmer" you are still sucking air from the main drain line or through the seals in the 3-way valve itself.

Jim R.

 

[Rodex]

Rod,

I suspect that your 3-way valve is bad.

So even when you think the valve is set to "Only skimmer" you are still sucking air from the main drain line or through the seals in the 3-way valve itself.

Jim R.

That could be the case. I did throw Saran Wrap on the open stub from the waterfall and the valve itself - no change. But it’s also hard to get a seal on those, so maybe still bad. I’ll check it out, thanks.

 

[Rodex]

That above ground choke valve has a clear top. I can see a few small bubbles but nothing like what it is actually pulling in under the lid. At the elbow on the skimmer side, you can hear very loud noise like air bubbles in the water coming in fast.

Even if the three way valve was leaky (and it’s now relubed and Saran wrapped with no change), I don’t think it accounts for all that air coming in.

Is there any way to check for an underground break?

 

[Jimrahbe]

Rod,

The only way to actually "test" the skimmer line would be to pressure test it. But that would require you to plug the skimmer end and then cut the PCV pipe and add an air input valve and gauge. Up by the valve. A lot of effort.

A broken skimmer line would be odd unless you have flex pipe.. I guess the connection to the skimmer could have broken, but then I would assume you would have a pool water leak.

Just to confirm. When you are moving the 3-way valve, the handle points to the open pipe.. Is that what you are seeing?

I'd want to follow what you believe is the skimmer line back a little more and see if you can find anything obvious. Maybe another check valve... How far is the pad from the pool?


Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Rodex]

Rod,

The only way to actually "test" the skimmer line would be to pressure test it. But that would require you to plug the skimmer end and then cut the PCV pipe and add an air input valve and gauge. Up by the valve. A lot of effort.

A broken skimmer line would be odd unless you have flex pipe.. I guess the connection to the skimmer could have broken, but then I would assume you would have a pool water leak.

Just to confirm. When you are moving the 3-way valve, the handle points to the open pipe.. Is that what you are seeing?

I'd want to follow what you believe is the skimmer line back a little more and see if you can find anything obvious. Maybe another check valve... How far is the pad from the pool?


Thanks,

Jim R.

Yep, the valve handle points to the open pipe, and the little arrow points to the closed direction. The skimmer line is unburied by maybe a foot right now, I could keep tracing it down I suppose. There are a couple of couplers in-line like they repaired it a few times. I wrapped the whole pipe all the way down to where we dug, so it doesn’t seem like those couplers are causing issues.

The pad is maybe 10’ from the pool.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Rod,

If this were my pool, and I thought the skimmer line was bad, and in order to fix it, I'd have to rip up a bunch of decking, I'd try one thing first.

I'd run a temporary line from the pump input over the top of the ground right into the pool. With that temporary line installed, if the pump runs like it should, without any air, then it would confirm that the skimmer line is the problem.

I assume when you are getting air into the skimmer line that there is plenty of water in the pool and the skimmer door is not stuck in the up position.. ???

As another test, when running on just the skimmer line, look into the skimmer with the basket removed and make sure the water level stays pretty constant.. If the pump sucks out all the water, then check the skimmer door. The pump should not be able to suck all the water out of the skimmer.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Rodex]

Rod,

If this were my pool, and I thought the skimmer line was bad, and in order to fix it, I'd have to rip up a bunch of decking, I'd try one thing first.

I'd run a temporary line from the pump input over the top of the ground right into the pool. With that temporary line installed, if the pump runs like it should, without any air, then it would confirm that the skimmer line is the problem.

I assume when you are getting air into the skimmer line that there is plenty of water in the pool and the skimmer door is not stuck in the up position.. ???

As another test, when running on just the skimmer line, look into the skimmer with the basket removed and make sure the water level stays pretty constant.. If the pump sucks out all the water, then check the skimmer door. The pump should not be able to suck all the water out of the skimmer.

Thanks,

Jim R.

Yep, plenty of water, it’s actually higher than the skimmer door and there is no water getting sucked in when I checked earlier. Of course let me double check when I get back.

 

[Rodex]

So I stuck my camera down the skimmer pipe. I can feel it getting bombarded with turbulent water, and there are cracks all over the inside of the elbow there.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Rod,

Cracks or glue???

Where is this elbow?

Jim R.

 

[Rodex]

Rod,

Cracks or glue???

Where is this elbow?

Jim R.

Definitely looks like cracks. My battery died right before I could get the picture

It looks like it elbows toward the equipment pad just below the skimmer basket housing, maybe 6” below it?

 

[Rodex]

It’s hard to tell - I could see where it could be a coating of dried glue that cracked. It’s the same color as the pipe so the camera light washes it out.

One pool company told me that the motor I had (1.65HP) was too big for the 1.5” pipe size and I was seeing cavitation and not air leaks. I wrote that off as incorrect, but could there be any truth to that?

 

[Jimrahbe]

One pool company told me that the motor I had (1.65HP) was too big for the 1.5” pipe size and I was seeing cavitation and not air leaks. I wrote that off as incorrect, but could there be any truth to that?

Rod,

What a load of Bull Feathers!!! I have two pools with 3 HP IntelliFlo pumps that don't have any issue with 1.5" pipes. Granted that I don't often run them at full speed, but I have and have never seen any cavitation...

Jim R.

 

[Rodex]

Yet another thread hoping to resolve one of the so many issues my pool equipment has been having lately…

Just to recap - the main pump motor went out and when I installed a new VS motor, air was constantly getting sucked in to the pump. Turns out my waterfall pump is tied to the main drain via an underground choke valve and air was sucked in through the now bad choke valve as well as a collapsed pipe (seems likely it collapsed when we were in a freeze and both motors were full tilt for days).

There is a 3-port valve to the main pump that can direct water from the skimmer or main drain. The advice from another post was to tie the main pump to just the skimmer. However, air is getting sucked in on the skimmer line also (separate problem from the waterfall pump).

So, just to get things running until we figure out what’s up with the skimmer line, I replaced the weird underground choke valve today (old choke valve had a giant notch in it, definitely bad), and the pump is no longer pulling in air from that valve. However, it’s definitely still struggling. It doesn’t actually look like it’s pulling in air, but it’s definitely having a hard time evacuating the giant air bubble under the lid. Pipes are shaking and all.

In trying to figure out why it’s struggling, I noticed the above ground choke valve on the main drain is not open as much as the other choke valves are when they are activated. Pictures are attached of the max on state (3-port valve turned all the way to this line and VS motor at max speed) and the off state. Should this flapper be way more open than this?

 

[Rodex]

(Must have made a faux pas by posting that long description on a new thread…my bad. I figured it was a separate issue so needed a separate thread. Thanks to whoever was monitoring that!)