Water Chemistry Help

[JamesW]

I would get everything perfect now and then close with a solid cover.

This way, you can avoid the drain and refill in the spring.

 

[Newdude]

Hey JP !!! Don’t be surprised if you seem to make some progress and get stonewalled shortly thereafter. I imagine your helpful questions will expose improper maintenance/ record keeping which may implicate others. If that happens their attitudes may change quickly.

I would be concerned that it may even affect your approvals of moving in if the board thinks you are looking for trouble for them.

 

[JamesW]

I would switch to a SWG and keep the CYA at 30 to 40 ppm and the FC at 3.0 to 4.0.

This would be within local code and it follows TFP guidelines.

The maintenance company should not care as long as it does not make their job harder.

This will be the easiest to maintain and keep everyone happy.

If the maintenance company is not willing to do things correctly, fire them.

Their performance so far is horrible.

They need to either begin doing things correctly or they need to be fired, in my opinion.

In my opinion, the liability is vastly overestimated as long as you are diligent in doing things correctly.

Keep good records and have the pool inspected by the health department a few times per season and you should be fine.

 

[Oly]

Makes sense to me why you are willing to take this on and is similar to an experience I had as an owner - member of a swim club facility. Like you I secretly tested the water, realized poor water chemistry and a lack of understanding. I also saw an old inadequate test kit, poor records, lack of training for the staff and county inspections that recorded the issues but did not follow through with compliance. Visable algae on the pool surface and cloudy water was accepted as normal in a lap pool with high usage, unbelievable. I was able to get them to upgrade the test kit and I trained the staff on its use and got them to record the daily test data.
Things improved but expect push back. It seems crazy that people would resist but they will. I too agree that you should protect yourself from liability. I also was elected to the board and that helped the cause but be warned your experience may change the way you view your neighbors your association and the leaders. Life is a tangled web.

 

[JamesW]

About liability (a nonprofessional opinion):

Anyone can sue anyone else for anything at any time, but that does not mean that they are going to win.

For any significant lawsuit, you will usually need a lawyer and they will need a cause of action that links you to whatever harm they claim.

They will have to show that you did something wrong or that you were negligent about doing something that you had a duty to do.

If you are an employee, your liability depends on your responsibilities and if you deliberately or negligently caused some harm.

The organization retains the primary responsibility.

As long as you do your assigned duties and the duties are not obviously illegal or dangerous, then you should not have a lot of liability.

If you are working as a “qualified” expert in something, like a licensed electrician, then you have the liability related to what you do as an expert.

If you do not claim to be an expert in pool management, then the liability falls primarily to the association and anyone they hire as the qualified experts to manage the pool.

If liability was such a big problem, every employee in every job would need to be constantly terrified that they will get sued.

Do not consider the above to be legal advice, and do not rely on it as such.

Consult an attorney for all legal advice that you need.

 

[ajw22]

An even better idea..... text any chemical readings I take to BOTH the pool company owner AND the Board President. This way, the person with overall responsibility for everything at the Association (including how the pool is being maintained) get the water chemistry readings and everything will be transparent. If the person(s) responsible for pool maintenance at the condo had been doing this, the pool would have been shut down long ago until the pool company addressed the CYA issue.

Good luck with that. You will quickly be labeled a PITA. The Board President does not want to hear about every pool test. He just wants it taken care of. He should have more important issues to give his time to.

And the Pool Company Owner really does not want to hear from you unless you were named the point of contact by the Condo Association.

While the pool may be your primary concern it is low on the Boards worry list.

If you want to be a positive force for change you have to make the problems disappear not drag them into it.

 

[TexEdmond]

Also, I plan to ask the Board President for a meeting with the head of the pool company managing the pool to see if we are on the same page with respect to ideal water chemistry (and other maintenance issues).

One big issue I would see having read the information James posted and from what I've heard anecdotally here on the site, might be worth trying to internalize and use to educate the folks on the board who "own" the pool.

TFP recommendations are based on the new (correct, based on science) data around water sanitization and FC/CYA balance. Pool stores, dippy strips, and code enforcement is often based on the "old school" use of a hard-line acceptable range of FC in the pool, which ignores the actual disinfectant level of chlorine at whatever level of CYA. Many newcomers balk at the levels of FC and CYA levels we recommend, because the institutional knowledge is based on a service that needs to "shock" the pool weekly to destroy biological growth that will almost certainly appear with rising CYA and a statutory maximum 4ppm FC. Very quickly this becomes untenable. As is, and barring any other regulations that apply that James didn't share, it looks like SOME of the TFP recommendations could be followed, but not all. The margin looks pretty thin. As soon as your pool reaches 50ppm CYA, you're probably not going to be able to keep it safe for you and your neighbors to use the pool, given bather load and loss to sunlight.



Also, consider the rule that says, "Shock to 10ppm FC. The math is simple: you'll not reach SLAM level following that rule unless you keep the pool at 20ppm CYA.




For what it's worth now you've at least got the CYA 50ppm maximum to hold folks to and helping the board understand how limiting a pool with 50cya to 4ppm FC creates an unsanitary condition. We're allowed to put more FC in our pools because it's proven to be safe. But it might be against the law in your situaiton if someone wanted to squawk about it.

 

[TexEdmond]

While the pool may be your primary concern it is low on the Boards worry list.

Until the norovirus outbreak...

 

[JPMorgan]

Absolutely wonderful advice and guidance! Seriously... you have all opened my eyes to the pros and cons and given me a lot to think about. This is our first venture in condo living, so I really appreciate the comments about how my best intentions might be viewed and how it might impact relationships. I am going to proceed cautiously, not try to be seen as a rabble-rouser, but simply a resident who is knowledgeable about pools and wants to be helpful. Will be cautious about how aggressively I pursue things, BUT..... they need to know what's going on at their pool and start addressing it. I will definitely find out more about the "employee relationship", make sure there is some kind of written duties for the "onsite pool maintenance guy", make sure I do not do anything that I am not qualified to do or is not a part of the written responsibilities. I will also consult with an attorney and a my insurance agent before getting more involved. Thanks all for the very helpful feedback!

 

[TexEdmond]

 

[JPMorgan]

One big issue I would see having read the information James posted and from what I've heard anecdotally here on the site, might be worth trying to internalize and use to educate the folks on the board who "own" the pool.

TFP recommendations are based on the new (correct, based on science) data around water sanitization and FC/CYA balance. Pool stores, dippy strips, and code enforcement is often based on the "old school" use of a hard-line acceptable range of FC in the pool, which ignores the actual disinfectant level of chlorine at whatever level of CYA. Many newcomers balk at the levels of FC and CYA levels we recommend, because the institutional knowledge is based on a service that needs to "shock" the pool weekly to destroy biological growth that will almost certainly appear with rising CYA and a statutory maximum 4ppm FC. Very quickly this becomes untenable. As is, and barring any other regulations that apply that James didn't share, it looks like SOME of the TFP recommendations could be followed, but not all. The margin looks pretty thin. As soon as your pool reaches 50ppm CYA, you're probably not going to be able to keep it safe for you and your neighbors to use the pool, given bather load and loss to sunlight.

View attachment 371401

Also, consider the rule that says, "Shock to 10ppm FC. The math is simple: you'll not reach SLAM level following that rule unless you keep the pool at 20ppm CYA.

View attachment 371402


For what it's worth now you've at least got the CYA 50ppm maximum to hold folks to and helping the board understand how limiting a pool with 50cya to 4ppm FC creates an unsanitary condition. We're allowed to put more FC in our pools because it's proven to be safe. But it might be against the law in your situaiton if someone wanted to squawk about it.

First time I tested, FC was at 10.5, so it's possible that the pool company had just "shocked" the pool that day. I like James W suggestion to see if I can advocate for change to SWG. That seems like it might be the best solution. Otherwise, I would try to have an understanding with pool company that we will be working to maintain CYA at 30-40 and FC at 4 (since that's the upper limit per regs). I knwo the only way to do that is with liquid chlorine additions daily, which I am willing to do. I'll know soon how my attempts to be helpful are received by the group. Will keep you posted.....

BTW, what would be the approximate cost of conversion to SWG for a 60,000 gallon pool?

 

[ajw22]

BUT..... they need to know what's going on at their pool and start addressing it.

As a new concerned resident I would send a well written letter to the Board describing what you believe the regulations for the pool are; your observations on pool maintenance and current water chemistry; and suggestions for corrective actions. This puts the entire Board on notice and should lead to discussion and consideration by the Board. Then you can see how the Board handles it.

I would not get into the weeds on water chemistry and alternative methods. If they simply get the pool into compliance with a maximum CYA of 40 and FC of 3-4 tested twice a day during daylight hours and the water algae free the pool will be pretty good.

If you get that far you can then suggest further improvements for cost savings and efficiency.

Take it one step at a time with the Condo and Board. Little feet, little steps.

 

[ajw22]

BTW, what would be the approximate cost of conversion to SWG for a 60,000 gallon pool?

Probably around $5K - $7K in pool company $.

 

[TexEdmond]

Probably around $5K - $7K in pool company $.

yeah, no clue. you'll be up in the big-leagues with a commercial solution, probably at least 2 cells. That's a herculean amount of chlorine to add by hand, 60k pool with sunlight and a regular swimmer load. It'd almost certainly be more economical and safe in the long run to go the SWG route. If not, you might push for a chlorine pump system that doses smaller amounts throughout the day, but I also have no experience there.

 

[ajw22]

2 60K cells @ $2,000 each = $4,000
Electrician - $1,000
Plumbing - $1,000
45 bags of salt @ $12 - $20 = $540 - $900

 

[JPMorgan]

I would get everything perfect now and then close with a solid cover.

This way, you can avoid the drain and refill in the spring.

To get everything perfect now with CYA at 180, they would need to drain about 50,000 of the 60,000 gallon pool, correct? Then refill, balance chemicals, then drain again (in a couple weeks) to get water below the return lines. It seems to me that, one way or another, they are going to dump about 60,000 gallons of water.... either now or in the spring. Please correct me if I'm missing something.

 

[JamesW]

You should be able to get an IC60 installed for about $2,380.00.

IC60 = $1,500.00

Electrical = $300.00

Plumbing = $200.00 to $300.00.

Salt = $280.00. ($10 x 28).

An IC 60 will provide about 4 ppm per day if the pump runs 24 hours per day.

The pump should be variable speed and it should run 24 hours per day.

During times when the pool is open, the pump has to meet the flow requirements from the regulations.

During the times the pool is closed, the pump can be run at a slower speed.

4 ppm per day should be fine for most of the time and the difference can be made up with the addition of liquid chlorine as needed.

If you keep the CYA at 25 to 35 and the FC at 3 to 4, everything should be fine.

Try to find the percentage operation for the cell where it maintains about 3.5 all the time.

You might need to adjust the percentage periodically.

A second system can be added, if necessary.

Maybe have the plumbing and electrical done to allow the installation of a second system to be done relatively easily.

 

[JamesW]

then drain again (in a couple weeks) to get water below the return lines.

With a solid cover, you don't want to drain below the returns.

The cover needs the support of the water.

You only want to be just below the tile to help prevent tile damage from the pool water surface freezing and the expansion pushing on the tiles.

The returns can be blown out and plugged.

 

[JamesW]

You can get a Pentair 520588 Dummy Bypass Cell plumbed in to make it easy to add a second cell if you want later.

You can have the electrical stubbed out to make it easy to connect a second power supply.

The cells can be independently operated and they do not need to be a commercial system.

 

[JPMorgan]

Thanks JamesW. Excellent information and sounds like it could be an effective, simple and fairly inexpensive solution. There are 160 units in the Association so at 5k to 7k we're talking around $30 to $45 per unit (and the Association has ample reserves). I'm not entirely sure, but my guess is the system will pay for itself in short order by reduced maintenance costs, i.e., less visits by pool company (if they can renegotiate the contract next year). How often do you add salt in a SWG system? I'm not that familiar with SWGs. Is that $280 for salt a seasonal expense or does salt need to be added periodically throughout the season?

While we're on the subject of reduced maintenance costs, is there any reason a "public" pool cannot use a robotic cleaner to vacuum the pool? Seems like that would be cheaper than having the pool company come out twice per week to vacuum. I figure for $1,200 to $1,500 you could get a nice Dolphin to handle that pool. Drop it in the pool in the early morning (or evening) and make sure it's out before the pool opens each day.... seems pretty simple. Anything in the regs that prohibit robotic cleaners?