Water Chemistry Help

[TexEdmond]

At this point, the maintenance company is not following the regulations.

At a minimum, they need to get the CYA down below 50 ppm as per regulations.

Telling them to follow the regulations should not incur any liability.

Understood, and none of that is in dispute. It was my impression that OP was offering to take over some if not all of the daily measuring, dosing, and maintenance of the pool to get it back safe by "our" standards, which also might not align with the code. My point in urging them to be careful is that "whoever's doing the work will be held responsible for the outcome of that work." Without an agreement from the HOA and possibly the pool company protecting himself from liability, OP could possibly be transferring to himself the risk of penalty that obviously belongs to the pool company (and ultimately the HOA) for not keeping the pool safe and to code.

 

[JPMorgan]

That is a very kind, selfless gesture. Please be careful.

On account of this being a community pool and likely subject to any number of regulations, I would urge you to reconsider your offer to help before you can talk to your family and possibly an attorney about the personal liability implications.

Yes... I did have some concerns about this and was going to ask JamesW if he knows if the regulations require that a licensed pool professional maintain a community pool and what role a condo resident can legitimately play in the process (without putting oneself at risk). I actually don't mind testing the water daily for them, adding chemicals and doing minor maintenance around the pool. My fear is having too little to do as we move into our "condo life" and this would give me a "mission" each day, a way to be helpful, and a way to use my pool knowledge. However, I'm guessing anything a "non-professional" does would have to be supervised by the licensed professional (pool company), i.e., reporting testing results, chemical additions, etc. to the pool company daily and getting their (documented) approval. Can you comment further on this, TexEdmond or JamesW?

 

[JPMorgan]

"Without an agreement from the HOA and possibly the pool company protecting himself from liability, OP could possibly be transferring to himself the risk of penalty that obviously belongs to the pool company (and ultimately the HOA) for not keeping the pool safe and to code."

If I get involved, I will definitely be pursuing an agreement that protects me from any liability and have an attorney review that agreement. I understand that I can not take full responsibility, as a non-licensed person, for the condition of the community pool, but would be working under the supervision of the pool company and reporting any issues to them. There are two gentleman who have been doing this for the Association and one recently left. I need to understand what the other gentleman has been doing, how he has been interfacing with the pool company under contract with the Association, if he knows how to do proper water chemistry tests, etc. I wonder if this other gentleman understands that he has potential liability. If he is charged with testing the pool water daily and he is not reporting the unsafe conditions to the pool company, then he has put himself at significant risk!

"Don't be surprised if the logs show perfect chemistry every single day. The pH will probably be "recorded" as 7.5 every day for weeks at a time and the same for the FC, CYA etc."

Before I get too involved, my plan is to sit down with the HOA President and ask to see a week's worth of the daily logs, when the readings were taken, what the readings were, etc.
I then plan to do a test of all levels... FC CC pH TA CH CYA... in his presence and make sure he understands that CYA could not be 50 yesterday.... or last week.... and be 180 today. If pH is recorded as 7.5 everyday for weeks, then why is it 7.0 today? Either someone is "fudging" the reports or the person testing doesn't know what they are doing.

 

[TexEdmond]

Can you comment further on this, TexEdmond

I'm not a lawyer, just your friendly neighborhood audio engineer (aka unfrozen caveman). I've worked on a few projects that have had direct safety concerns regarding the general public like installing distributed overhead public announce loudspeaker systems where civilians regularly congregate and walk. A co-worker of mine that was even more paranoid than I am kept saying, "If that falls and hits someone, they'll take your house away from you!" Of course they wouldn't; I was an employee of the City and doing what my supervisor told me to do, and I would not have been personally liable for injury if I had done the work in-line with best practices and the code.

Nobody knows what's going to happen with that condo's pool, but if somebody got hurt or sick I'd hate for someone at the pool company (we already question their integrity) throwing you under the bus as the "outside variable." I'd hate for one of your neighbors to decide to include you on a lawsuit. I'm not an expert on employment and liability, but it seems the only way you could be protected would be to ask that you're hired on as a part-time employee of either the pool company (not ideal) or the HOA (better choice). I know it's common practice for apartment complexes to offer reduced rental agreements to on-call maintenance and police officers. That might be a negotiation point: Condos are notorious for having high maintenance fees. Some of that obviously goes to the pool company that's not doing their jobs correctly. Maybe you could negotiate a lower fee by entering an agreement with the condo so you could be officially covered by their policy? Maybe the condo could go in-house with their day-to-day pool maintenance and you could help whatever maintenance crew they do have by training them and making it just as easy as possible? That might save all of you some money on your monthly bills, and more importantly you'd all have much safer pool water. Then the condo could hire out contractors to do the big work like draining, power washing, etc instead of having a full-time pool company on retainer and not doing their job.

The only other option I can see would be some kind of hold harmless affadavit but it'd seem like that'd have to be signed by the HOA and all of your neighbors. Sounds exceedingly complicated.

 

[JamesW]

The operation of a swimming pool is a complex task that requires knowledge of topics such as chemistry, plumbing, and electricity.

It is important to have trained, competent individuals operating the swimming pool.

At this time, there is no state requirement for pool operators to be licensed.

However, the Department developed this voluntary certification program and learning course to introduce the basic concepts and techniques necessary for the proper operation and maintenance of swimming pools.

Many employers and insurance companies are mandating this certification.

All individuals associated with the operation of swimming pools are strongly encouraged to take this course and become certified.

Only through proper education, understanding, and implementation of the regulations can the safety of swimmers be assured.

After the student has completed this booklet, arrangements may be made to take the final exam by contacting any of the Department’s regional offices indicated on the left side of Attachment 1 in the back of this booklet.

The exam is based on information contained in this document and the Swimming Pool and Bathing Beach Code.

Copies of these regulations may be obtained from any of the regional offices. A score of 75% is required to be awarded a certificate as a Certified Swimming Pool Operator by the Illinois Department of Public Health.

https://www.dph.illinois.gov/sites/default/files/publications/course-042716.pdf

You should become certified even though it is not required.

It is actually relatively easy as shown in the above information.

There is liability attached to anything you do.

However, the risk should be minimal as long as you are diligent in what you do and you only do things that you are qualified to do.

Don’t do anything that requires a professional license like replacing an electrical panel or any other work that would require a contractor’s license.

If you get paid, your duties, responsibilities and title should be clear.

For example, a janitor, maintenance person or custodian can do routine cleaning and maintenance tasks as long as the tasks do not require a professional license.

If you are considered an independent business, you might have legal requirements as a handyman, such as a business license, contractor's license, insurance etc.

Unpaid volunteers usually have less liability as long as they don’t do anything that they are not qualified to do.

Check with the state health department for guidance regarding what you can and cannot do.

Check with your attorney and insurance provider for specific and general advice.

Note: This is just my opinion and not professional advice.

 

[TexEdmond]

That's great information. Looks like we were writing our posts at the same time. It's always better to enter / modify an existing position and agreement than trying to reinvent the wheel. Great news, and keep us in the loop on your progress!

 

[ajw22]

Having been on a State Grand Jury that indicted some people for fraud in the record keeping of a contaminated municipal water plant I think fraudulent records would be likely if they are available at all. Or they may be conveniently misplaced once you ask for them.

Get yourself covered by the Condo Boards D&O insurance or look but don’t touch anything with the pool.

You can get a CPO certification. Read this to see what they teach - CPO Training - Further Reading

 

[JamesW]

In my opinion, as long as you are not negligent, you will not really incur a lot of liability if you get involved with the maintenance.

As long as you can document that you were following applicable guidelines, the liability should be low.

You can still keep the pool company as the primary party responsible for the overall operation of the pool.

Develop a clear set of processes and procedures for what you will and will not do.

Define the quality control and other metrics that will be measured and monitored.

You would just report everything you do with good notes and get advice and guidance for anything that you are not sure about.

Document all advice and guidance that is provided.

 

[ajw22]

You can have all the processes and documents but if something goes wrong and you are dragged into a law suit it will cost you to defend yourself even if you are ultimately held not liable and dismissed from the legal action.

The key benefit of insurance is to pay for your legal bills, right or wrong. With no coverage for your legal defense it is a personal liability you are taking on.

 

[TexEdmond]

Develop a clear set of processes and procedures for what you will and will not do.

Define the quality control and other metrics that will be measured and monitored.

You could also use this transition and off-the-charts wrong chemistry to push to educate for never using stabilized chlorine (tri- and dichlor) in the pool moving forward. You could advocate if the code says 50ppm is the max CYA level, try to keep it closer to 30. You can define your personal breakpoints for chem levels or even chem types... "If they still keep putting trichlor in, I know we will be above 50ppm in just a few weeks. Then we'll be out of compliance again." I've quit jobs before knowing that my boss was asking me to take actions that were leading to outcomes that they didn't want, then being held accountable for those outcomes. Give yourself permission to walk away if someone is driving that stagecoach over the cliff.

 

[JPMorgan]

Great information all!. I was informed that if I take on the pool maintenance, I would be an employee of the Association. Based on comments above, that is a good thing and will give me some protection under the Condo's insurance policy. I will make sure an attorney reviews the circumstances of this arrangement to ensure I'm protected and will also contact my insurance agent. I am going to proceed cautiously, take an "educational approach" with the board at first, and make sure anything I do with respect to maintenance of the pool is supervised and has the blessing of the pool company under contract. Over the winter I may get the Illinois Pool Operator's Certification, as well. Since they are close to closing the pool anyway and there CYA is way off and would require AT LEAST a 50% drain, my advice would be to close the outdoor pool to any swimmers for the season and then make sure the pool company closes the pool properly. Will keep you informed of events as they unfold. Will have some additional questions about closing pool in next post. Thanks, everyone.

 

[reggiehammond]

I think you have so little to gain by getting involved in the maintenance of the pool. There’s just so many horror stories about this type of thing.
At most, you might volunteer to provide testing to the association for a small fee to validate the pool service quality of service.
More than that, you get all the potential pain and complaints with no benefit, that I can see.

 

[JPMorgan]

I think the best advice to be given to the Association at this point in the season (and with CYA at 180) is to shut down the pool to swimmers and get it ready for closing. What needs to be done to close a pool when CYA is that high? If they typically drain and power wash the pool each spring, can they leave the CYA that high over the winter months or does it need to be addressed before closing? In my home pool my process has been to 1-balance the pool, 2-raise FC to SLAM levels them let it drift back a bit, 3-clean the surface of the pool well, 4-lower the water level, 5-address all suction and return lines and 6-cover the pool. Assuming the pool will be drained and refilled in spring, what are recommendations for closing procedure with an extremely high CYA level?

 

[ajw22]

CYA level does not effect the closing chemistry other then maintaining the FC/CYA ratio through closing. Which you are already off from. So just let them close it their usual way and deal with it in the spring 2022.

 

[JPMorgan]

CYA level does not effect the closing chemistry other then maintaining the FC/CYA ratio through closing. Which you are already off from. So just let them close it their usual way and deal with it in the spring 2022.

Is it likely the pool will be full of algae in the spring with the FC/CYA ratio so far off? If so, is there anything that can be done to prevent that? Will full drain and power wash in spring get rid of the algae effectively? Is the algae likely to leave stains on the pool?

I'll send photos of pool in next post. Pool water looks clear, but I see algae on the bottom.

Kind of a shame that they are dumping 60,000 gallons of water every year!

 

[ajw22]

Is it likely the pool will be full of algae in the spring with the FC/CYA ratio so far off?

If you close the pool with algae is in the water then there is a high likelihood there will be algae when you open it. It has nothing to do with the FC/CYA ratio.

If so, is there anything that can be done to prevent that?

Get the water to be algae free before closing. That requires the SLAM Process and is hard to do with high CYA.

Will full drain and power wash in spring get rid of the algae effectively?

All depends how well they wash things.

Is the algae likely to leave stains on the pool?

Thats why they power wash it. But every power wash takes off some plaster also and lessens the life of the plaster. Not that the pool company cares. We never recommend regularly power washing pool plaster.

I'll send photos of pool in next post. Pool water looks clear, but I see algae on the bottom.

Only a Overnight Chlorine Loss Test will tell you for sure.

Kind of a shame that they are dumping 60,000 gallons of water every year!

Welcome to the world of commercial pool maintenance. Draining, power washing, etc all keep people employed and revenues rolling in. If the customer is not complaining all is good.

 

[JamesW]

What type of cover will be used?

 

[JPMorgan]

I noted that I can text or email water chemistry readings in the Pool Math App. What a great tool! If I get involved with some aspect of pool maintenance, my plan would be to text the readings for each test I take to the pool company (owner), as well as any chemical additions that I PLAN to make. I would proceed only when I get a response "OK". I think that would give me a lot of protection. Also, I plan to ask the Board President for a meeting with the head of the pool company managing the pool to see if we are on the same page with respect to ideal water chemistry (and other maintenance issues). If not..... I'm out! Are there any pool companies in the West Chicago suburbs that anyone can recommend that are in sync with TFP methods (just in case the Association decides to change pool companies)?

 

[JPMorgan]

What type of cover will be used?

They have a winter safety cover. I have seen it in the storage areas and I see the anchors around the pool deck. I think it is a solid cover (but not sure).

 

[JPMorgan]

An even better idea..... text any chemical readings I take to BOTH the pool company owner AND the Board President. This way, the person with overall responsibility for everything at the Association (including how the pool is being maintained) get the water chemistry readings and everything will be transparent. If the person(s) responsible for pool maintenance at the condo had been doing this, the pool would have been shut down long ago until the pool company addressed the CYA issue.