Walls caved in from rain. Crushed Rocks below rebar?

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R

rjk2012

0
Sep 29, 2018
12
Tampa, FL
We had our excavation early last week and the same day they did the steel. Some of the walls started to fall a bit until two days ago when it rained all day, all four sides started caving. Some sides more than others. It even bend the rebar on one side when a large piece fell.
They initially put some crushed rocks in the deep end (5ft) but now with all the dirt and mud, most of it is under the dirt or have been tossed over.

I asked my PM if we need more rocks and he is saying no because they are still a lot under there. He hasn't been here to see it! I am a little concerned about settlement issues down the road. Should I be worried ? We have a sump pump in there since last week and its nonstop pumping water out the ground.
This is in tampa, FL - gunite
 
That is a huge hole in the side! I'm curious how they are going to fill that.....dirt then gunite or lots and lots of gunite. If there is serious settlement then I don't think a little bit of crushed rocks (quarter minus?) is going to make a huge difference. I think them getting it repaired and ready for gunite without cutting any corners is the bigger issue.
 
bdavis466 said:
Have them pull the rebar cage and start over.
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Not typically my area of expertise, but even by my own basic obervation/standards, the builder needs to perform a thorough on-site assessment to remedy what weather has done to compromise the area.
 
I’m so scared of this happening. We are getting rain soon and having gotten to shotcrete. I ordered an enormous tarp 60x40 to cover as much as possible and hoping to get a flash of shotcrete before Saturday (the expected rain). I would be concerned on the movement of the wall. Did the builder cover it at all? Or just the dirt next to it? Also, the Rabar is way different than mine. I’m sure every pool is different but mine is every couple of inches. I’m no expert (obviously), just surprised at how different the construction is. Will add a quick picture to show you the difference
 

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One of these pools is not like the other.........sing along with me...............The OP poster is not the one you want :( Please listen to @bdavis466 He is a master pool builder and knows his stuff. I have helped/watched/overlooked many pool builds and I have not seen the rebar that widely spaced before. I would not allow any more work to be done until the PB is on site and has the crew working on redoing it all!

What does your contract say about steel?
 
rj,

Time to look at your contract very closely. It will tell you what your rights are and what the contractor's obligations are. It's good to know this before you "direct or interfere with the builder". Not saying don't direct him, just good to know what, if any, liabilities you incur. Bdavis is your expert here. I'm a PM for very large industrial projects often with a lot of civil, foundation work. So I look at this more from the contract and management perspective. That said, this forming work doesn't look right but the best thing to do is to look at the design. Many jurisdictions require a stamped drawing from a Registered Engineer. Everything that shows a dimension and/or quantity must be done according to this drawing. If you don't have this ask your builder to produce it.

This is a very critical stage for your pool. If it were me, I'd require an on-site inspection by the builder. And an explanation of his plan to repair the damage. I'd do this regardless of the potential cost. Worst case he most likely can only get "demonstrated damage" which is delay costs. If you're going to take a potential delay penalty this would be the time and reason to do it. It would be way better to take this exposure than to be stuck with major structural problems and warranty fights later on. My opinion only and I hope it's helpful.

Good luck and please keep us posted.

Chris
 
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Hey [U]WalkerTribe7[/U]

I was worried about the same thing right before we got rain. It is almost impossible to tarp over a large pool due to the weight. If you can actually tent over it that might not be bad. What I did was tarp the walls and the Baja steps. I wasn't worried about the very bottom of the deep end. I tried to funnel all the water to the deep end and had a sump pump going to get the water out. The goal was to protect any areas where it could be washed out. Just be careful how you do the sides so it isn't retaining water and creating pressure on the non-pool side of the beam. We ended up not getting as much rain as they forecasted and I didn't have any issues.
 

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Phx_Jay said:
Hey [U]WalkerTribe7[/U]

I was worried about the same thing right before we got rain. It is almost impossible to tarp over a large pool due to the weight. If you can actually tent over it that might not be bad. What I did was tarp the walls and the Baja steps. I wasn't worried about the very bottom of the deep end. I tried to funnel all the water to the deep end and had a sump pump going to get the water out. The goal was to protect any areas where it could be washed out. Just be careful how you do the sides so it isn't retaining water and creating pressure on the non-pool side of the beam. We ended up not getting as much rain as they forecasted and I didn't have any issues.
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Thank you, that’s great feedback. I think my husband was looking at tenting it because of the weight (like you mentioned). It’s been such a bad year for rain that we’ve been sitting on this project since December. We need to push forward and pray it holds up! Good luck to you
 
I went and measured all the rebar, they are less than 12" a part. The approved permit documents reflect the rebar at 12" on center. The gunite guy just came to inspect and i questioned the quality of the steel and he walked the whole parameter and said everything is good. I asked about the walls, and he said that this is not uncommon. They will fill in the areas where only some of the wall came down and the areas where the full wall came down, they will tie the board/sheet to the rebar and shot. The sheet will act as a web and catch the cement as its shot. Once its drys, those areas will be backfilled with dirt.
This is our first time so this is a little overwhelming, we've had 2 of our neighbors stop by that had pools built and they said one of them had the walls come down but the rebar was done the same way for them.
i brought up the wall falling with the PM also, he was not very concerned about it and said this happens and can be fixed easily.
The builder is one of the highest rated pool builders here so that puts us a bit at ease
 
Arizonarob said:
So that raises a question. Was the engineering company hired by you? Or were they hired through your PB?
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Great question! they were hired by the builder. I questioned the conflict of interest concerned i have with the inspector when he came to do the steel inspection. He said they are backed by insurance if they screw up vs the county inspections have no liability if they mess up. He obviously talked about how they are more qualified than the county inspectors. This was definitely a huge concern for me
 
You can always hire your own inspector. If the drawing meets the county's requirements and is stamped by a PE then you should be OK so long as the construction matches the design. Just need to be sure all dimensions and materials are as shown on the stamped drawing. For example, you'll see a mimimum distance off the backing that the rebar has to be. This is just as important as the size and spacing of the rebar. Rebar exposed after the concrete is poured isn't doing your structure much good. It must be contained within the concrete and adhere all around to provide the tensile strength needed.

I hope this is helpful.
 
that cage needs to be pulled in spots and the cave ins fixed. if they do sections make sure its tied back in properly and have it inspected again. Do you have plans for the pool from a stamped engineer? what does the rebar spacing and layout show? if it matches then its on the engineer and his license. different areas of the country require different amounts of steel, and even the same area can have different soils changing the layouts. As usual more is better 99% of the time
 
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Another non-expert here -- but this is the internet, so I'll opine anyway! You can see in my build photos below, they just used a bobcat on my excavation with a ramp going down to the deep end. When they did the gunite, they just put a mesh form across where the ramp went in, and shot the gunite onto that. Then they backfilled and compacted dirt into the hole behind the gunite that was the ramp, and my concrete deck is poured on top of that. So maybe the process would be similar with your cave-in - just dig out the dirt, and put a form over the missing wall to shoot the gunite onto? Or maybe my soil types allow for something different than what you have? I don't know... but in any case -- hope it all resolves for you without too much trouble!
 

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