Valve replacement and possible replumbing advice?

[bradgray]

Thank you for examples of what can happen when a pump is dead-headed.

sarcasm?

And I'm always up for being corrected when I'm wrong.

You're not wrong categorically and this isn't a criticism. Just sharing some examples of when I wished it had been 2 or 3 valve position mistakes before someone blew it up, instead of 1.

Unless, somehow, the stops that keep the diverter from rotating more degrees than it's supposed to are not present.

So I'll concede they are not idiot proof when it comes to installing them, only when using them.

Yes, this. All that needs to occur is for the pins/posts on the Pentair valve to break or go missing, and it will rotate 360.

On the jandy shown in the photo, underside of the handle was worn and it was allowed to move 360 as well.

Builder in my area have also been known to install actuators that rotate the wrong direction and block the return or the suction as well during mode changes. Not strictly what we're talking about here, but continued examples of the inability to guarantee 3-ways never close their source.

Our seemingly contrary key points are not actually mutually exclusive.

 

[generessler]

Fwiw, when you end up re-plumbing, I can recommend Reed Tool reamers for limiting the number of new fittings needed. Of course if you're replacing everything from the ground up, you won't need it. Mine has paid for itself a couple of times over. Bought it about 3 years ago. Since then, a bunch of Chinese clones have shown up on Amazon at about a third the price. Don't know how they work.

 

[Dirk]

Our seemingly contrary key points are not actually mutually exclusive.

Agree. And no, I wasn't bering sarcastic about your examples. When I write stuff like "it could blow up," I'm sure to some it sounds like unrealistic claims. Your post and photos were proof of what deadheading a pump can do, exactly how I described it: either blowing up the pump or the plumbing.

Your second post also supported, or rather expounded on, mine, too. Yes, if someone doesn't install three-ways correctly, or repair them when they break, then of course they could end up being the cause of other damage. But that could be said about anything on a pool pad. That's not a reason to avoid three-ways, that's a reason to understand, install and maintain pool equipment properly.

I'm still sticking with my original point. If you compare a set of two-ways to a set of three-ways, whether they are the suction manifold or the return manifold, two-ways can easily be inadvertently set to deadhead the pump, and three-ways cannot (again, unless they are misconfigured or broken).

More to the point, together I think we described pretty thoroughly the pitfalls of two-way and three-way valves, such that @smkz can make an informed decision about which he might want to use. That's a successful thread in my book...

 

[mas985]

A few things that can reduce the risk of dead heading a pump are:

- Value actuators - assuming they are installed properly as was pointed out above.
- VS pumps - most if not all have prime detection which will shut down the pump in the event of not priming and/or blocked flow.
- Many controllers with flow switches will shut down any type of pump when flow stops. There are also DIY solutions for this.
- Educating family and friends about what one can and cannot do with respects to pool plumbing.

Unfortunately for the OP, the first three are not currently available. But nothing is 100% certain anyway which is why the last item is probably the most important.

 

[smkz]

Appreciate the discussion in here. I ordered 3x Jandy 4717 valves, once they arrive I'll grab some 2" pvc and play around with them to see if I can figure out any better manifold setup. With the little room I have I'm expecting I may need to recreate it as-is, but it will be fun to play with the Legos for a while at least. Planning on ordering the pump soon... That one will hurt a bit more

If I position the new pump with the suction side inlet at the same spot as my current one, it looks like the top outlet will be a little further back than my current pump, which means the pluming going to the filter isn't going to line up. I'd hate to need to cut this apart since it has the temp sensor for my solar heater and a hose bib plumbed into it, and it's been modified before with some newer date coded PVC (last time the pump was replaced I'd assume) so there isn't much cutting room available. I'll have just about 12" of straight pipe from the last valve to the intake of the new pump, so I may be able to shift the pump forward a bit since it it looks like Pentair calls for 10" of straight inlet pipe with 2" plumbing. It looks like the height of the outlet should line up pretty closely... would be nice if the existing piece just screwed into the Pentair union without needing to cut anything, but don't know if I'll get that lucky.

Edit: I realized if I shift the pump out to meet the straight inlet it won't line up with the top either way so at a minimum I'll have to remove it from the filter, pivot it down a bit (?) then rebuild the tee section with the hose bib (or cut that section and turn it so it's perpendicular with the ground again). The more I think about this the more of a project it becomes lol.

 

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[Dirk]

If I position the new pump...

I hear ya, but rebuilding that branch (from pump to filter) would be relatively easy. Don't let all the stuff attached to the current branch intimidate you, it can all be recreated easily.

once they arrive I'll grab some 2" pvc and play around with them to see if I can figure out any better manifold setup

Keep in mind...

The valves you bought have 2"/2.5" ports. In case you don't know what that means yet: you can fit a 2" pipe into the inside of the port, or a 2.5" coupler or elbow around the outside of the port. Sometimes a 2.5" elbow on the outside of the port can get you more leeway in a tight fit, even though that might seem counterintuitive. Then you would use more 2.5" pipe if need be, or at some point (even right at the elbow), you'd use a reducer to get you back to 2" pipe. This is a pic of a two-way, but the three-ways work the same way.



Once you start playing around, this'll make more sense. So when you purchase your tinker toys, you might also grab some 2.5" elbows and couplers and some 2.5" to 2" reducers, to have on hand. Maybe a 2' length of 2.5" PVC if they have it. If you buy at Lowes (and probably HD), they take all the extras back, so when you're done dry-fitting, you can return what you didn't need.

PS. We all have this same face when trying to figure out pool pad plumbing:

 

[smkz]

Good tips, thank you. I did get the 2/2.5 ones in case I needed to connect 2.5 pipe to them, but wasn't sure if using something like a 2.5" coupler to connect the valves together was considered acceptable because I couldn't find any pics of a setup like that. Will grab both sizes of PVC on my next weekly Lowes/HD trip! I'll probably end up recreating the pump to filter connection as well, but will cut out the section with the temp probe to preserve that and carry it over to the new setup.

I also noticed that my filter for some reason has only 1.5" pipe going into it, with a reducer at both ends. I can't think of any reason why they would have done this since those unions definitely look like they could have accepted 2" and that's what all the rest of the pipe is. Seems like a pretty big bottleneck that should probably be fixed, and my filter is also 20 year old original equipment... So if I'm gonna spend the time and money for new unions it might be better to just upgrade to one of those new clean and clear RP housings and go from 150->200 sqft. That would have a different inlet location but if I'm rebuilding the connection it's no problem. The project scope continues to increase

I ordered a 1.5-2" pvc reamer/socket saver attachment in case I get in a bind and have no more room. If I end up doing a filter replacement I'll likely run into that problem on the outlet side.

 

[Dirk]

Seems like a pretty big bottleneck

Well, of all the things that resist flow on your pad, the filter is the king. So even if you could get those connections to 2" somehow, I doubt it would change the flow rate much, if any. The guts of the filter is the primary bottleneck, not the connections. A larger, newer filter would probably help your flow rate.

wasn't sure if using something like a 2.5" coupler to connect the valves together was considered acceptable

It's fine. I've seen pics of that here. The only thing "wrong" with doing that is creating the same issue you've got now: gluing components so close together that they can't be replaced without replacing other components. But the 2"/2.5" ports give you two shots. For example, if you connect everything with 2" pipe, then later need to replace something, you can cut off the 2" pipe and convert to 2.5" couplers, and vice versa. Theoretically, the reamers give you more chances, but I've never used those, so I don't know how well they work, and what you can get away with.

Technically, connecting with 2.5" couplers, instead of 2" pipe, would reduce resistance by some small amount. But nothing you'd notice, or should care about. In your case, use whatever size(s) solve the layout issues.

Sounds like you have a good handle on all this. Go for it!

 

[Dirk]

The project scope continues to increase

There's several chapters of Murphy's Law dedicated to that very phenomenon. And to think, didn't this all start with a small crack?! Just curious: are you going to buy the pump now, and fit all these new plumbing changes to that? Or try to replace the pump later? And now a new filter might be in the mix. Seems like doing everything at once would be the way to go... if it wasn't for that pesky budget.

If you need ammo, the variable speed pump, and to some degree a larger filter, will start saving you energy costs. And they're both only going to get more expensive, not cheaper. So now's the time, if you can swing it.

Another thing to consider: did you mention going with Pentair equipment? (I like Pentair.) If you buy three certain Pentair components on the same receipt, Pentair will upgrade the warranty for each to three years. I believe a pump and filter would qualify. So what else do you need?!?

Pentair calls it a "bundle warranty," but I can no longer find the webpage that describes it. It might be worth a phone call to Pentair support to see what they offer. An extra couple of years of warranty is nothing to sneeze at. They also sometimes qualify their warranty based on "professional installation," and they have specifics for that, too. Something else to discuss with them.

 

[ajw22]

Pentair calls it a "bundle warranty," but I can no longer find the webpage that describes it.

Pool Product Warranty Information

Whether you are planning a pool party for friends and family or prefer the serene sensation of a calm pool, Pentair has the pool and spa solutions just for you.

www.pentair.com

 

[smkz]

There's several chapters of Murphy's Law dedicated to that very phenomenon. And to think, didn't this all start with a small crack?! Just curious: are you going to buy the pump now, and fit all these new plumbing changes to that? Or try to replace the pump later? And now a new filter might be in the mix. Seems like doing everything at once would be the way to go... if it wasn't for that pesky budget.

Haha, technically yes, although I've had a VS pump on my radar for a while. The crack and need to replace the valves is a good opportunity for the pump, but the rest was not planned for.

Your explanation of the filter resistance makes complete sense of course, so I guess my worries about the 1.5" pipe there aren't as big of an issue as I'd thought. The filter is old and it would be nice to replace, but it doesn't seem in critically bad shape or anything. It's got that sort of chalky disintegrating finish but no cracks or exposed fiberglass that I can see at least. If I just do the pump and wait on the filter, I'd be aiming to keep a big section of the pump->filter connection and just redo the top tee part with the spigot, while keeping in mind I'll have to do it again when the filter goes. The section I'm most worried about screwing up is the filter outlet since it looks like I would need to rely on the pvc reamer if I wanted to keep that section intact. I think my valves will end up too close together again, but the 2/2.5" giving one extra chance for a replacement is good. If they last 20 years again I won't mind.

As for that warranty bundle, seems like they would only honor it if I bought everything locally and had a pro installation unfortunately. The light in my pool is starting to act up and I think it's a 5G Intellibrite, but that might have to wait until I get it resurfaced in 1-2 years. I'm gonna DIY everything (hopefully) so I think it will be the basic parts only warranty. My local Pinch-A-Penny wants a whopping $3k just for the pump, so I'm almost guaranteed to come out ahead by buying parts online instead. I'll need to make a decision on the filter, but if I did end up deciding to replace it I would do it the same time as everything else for sure.

 

[Dirk]

Solid plan. Yep, you gotta do the math on the DIY vs pro install. Pentair needs customers, but their primary source is pros, not DIYers. So they tailor their infrastructure to steer folks to pros, such that those pros can make some coin. But then that leads to parts markup plus installation labor and anything else they can bill you for. It's not uncommon to see an invoice from a pro that sells and installs to be twice that of online/DIY. So you could buy the part twice and still be ahead!

If you can wrangle a one-year warranty, that'd be good. That's when a component is most likely to show a defect. After that, you'll probably get another 20 years. My three-year upgrade did come in handy, but not for my pump or filter. It was that dang 5G light. My current one is doing OK, but the first iterations had a known bug that would tend to burn out way too soon. Point is... if you buy online, you might want to check with Pentair to see if they'll give you the one-year warranty or not. Then make your purchase decision (where you buy it) based on that. I just want to make sure you get no surprises six months from now if you need a warranty repair, only to find out Pentair won't honor one because of the vendor you purchased it from.

Post your progress pics!

 

[smkz]

I think my valve shipment is stuck in a snowstorm right now, but everything else is here! Probably will tackle it next weekend.

 

[Bill Winston]

you got this! Pics! Pics!

 

[smkz]

Well, the deed is done and new pump + filter are successfully installed! Was quite an ordeal with my old/brittle and tightly packed plumbing, will be sleeping well tonight.

If weather cooperates tomorrow, I've got to cut and redo a small section that's got a drip leak, reinstall my solar heater probe, and paint pipe. Also need to figure out why my spa heater no longer seems to have power No idea what happened there, the only electrical work I did was removing the conductors from the old pump and installing them into the new one. Will take pics once that's all done and it looks somewhat pretty. I'll need to figure out a good running schedule for the VS pump too.

 

[Dirk]

Great job!

 

[smkz]

Was able to fix the leak and electrical gremlins before the rain started today. My temp probe wires are busted right up to the actual sensor, so I just ordered a new replacement and will install that once it gets here. Just some more paint and labels once it's dry here tomorrow hopefully, then I think I'm done!

I'm curious how accurate Pentair's GPM estimates are in the app, but don't have a flow meter installed. Would like one, but not sure if there's a great spot to put it... the only place I can see would be to put one of those blue-white meters on the horizontal pipe above the pump, but not sure it's ok to go before the filter? I wish I could replace my white check valve with a flowvis one, but it's cemented over the elbow so would need to redo that entire section with the solar valve actuator, and I'm not in the mood for more PVC work for a while lol. I've got a jandy style check valve going into my propane heater that I could swap a meter into, but it's halfway into the dirt and facing the wrong way, so not ideal. Just eyeballing it, but with the pump at 50% power and my solar valve closed, my spa waterfall looks to be flowing only slightly slower than it was with my old 2.0 HP single speed running. That's 500w vs ~1800 so I'm pretty happy with that!

 

[Dirk]

With the exception of specialty bypasses, or when pipes split (like when a three-way sends some water to your pool and some to your spa), flow is constant throughout your circuit. So it doesn't matter where you put the flow meter, you'll get the same readings. That long section just after the pump, just after the hose bib, would be a fine spot for a FlowVis. That's pretty much where mine is. So then it wouldn't matter if water was going through your heater, or into the pool, or into the spa, you'd get accurate flow readings of what the pump is actually pushing.

I'm not exactly sure what Pentair GPM estimates are doing. I suspect it's just an algorithm using RPM and/or wattage numbers to calculate flow. @mas985 would know.

I use my FlowVis to monitor and adjust the flow through my heater, to optimize the heat exchange without wasting any more pump energy than I have to. I like to think it paid for itself just by doing that.

 

[mas985]

RPM, GPM and WATTS are a unique triplet for any VS pump drive operating point. If you know 2 of 3 parameters, you automatically know the 3rd. So when the RPM is set to a specific value, the pump can measure WATTS and GPM can then be known if the pump drive was previously calibrated. This can either be done via a table lookup or a fitted equation which is what I use in the WATTS2GPM worksheet (Pump Tools workbook).

For pumps that use a GPM setting, the same algorithms are used but the pump drive must use a iterative method to zero in on the correct RPM to reach the target GPM.

But as far as flow meters are concerned, the Blue White tends to be very inaccurate so I would avoid those. Installing it anywhere close to a fitting will cause large inaccuracies.

The FlowVis has much better accuracy but in reality, if you have an Intelliflo, that is good enough for pretty much anything that the flow rate would tell you anyway.

Why the interest in flow rate anyway?