Valve actuator QUESTION.

[CRUSH-IT!]

Do I have this right? There is a single motor which runs forward with standard polarity and reverse with reverse polarity. When it reaches its desired terminus the mechanical switch interrupts the power on the lead turning the valve. At more or less the same time it closes the mechanical switch for opposite polarity so that when it gets a signal to turn back it can. If the actuator gets a signal to move to position B and it is already in position B then nothing happens because that circuit is already interrupted by the mechanical switch. If it gets a signal to move to the opposite position "A" then it will turn to A. Do I have this right?

The reason I am asking is I am going to replace my automation and plan to have a number of macros. I think hayward or pentair call them themes. I am making some plumbing changes in advance and want to plan accordingly. If I schedule a change from one macro to another and it changes an intake valve but may or may not need to change a return valve can I count on the automation getting the valves to the right spot independent of what position the valves are in when the macro comes on and even if there are, lets say, three or four valves that need positioning.

Thanks in advance.

Chris

 

[Jimrahbe]

Chris,

Kind of.. The actuator get 24 VAC voltage, so polarity is not in play... The input to the actuator comes in on one wire to drive the valve one way and a different wire to drive the valve the other way.. The Actuator control system is an open loop system.. The automation has no clue what position the valve is in.. It only knows where it "thinks" the valve is.. This is why there is a little switch on the actuator that moves the valve from one stop to the other. This allows you to initially set the valve so that the valve and automation are in sync.

Here is a simple diagram..

img058.jpg

• Jimrahbe
• Nov 15, 2018

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[PoolGate]

Jandy has a "SmartJVA" controller board which allows the valve to be moved in 5% increments. Each JVA requires a board. It is the only automation system that I am aware of that has this feature. With the SmartJVA, the controller is aware of where the valve is stopped at any given time. It does an initial calibration.

 

[CRUSH-IT!]

Wow. I want to make sure I have this correct. Lets say I have 4 valves, A,B,C,D. I can tell the automation that macro one is: open, close, open close and macro two is close, open,close,open but i cannot then say macro 3 is open, open, close, close and schedule them at will?

If the valve is already in the correct position will the automation "know" not to activate it?

 

[PoolGate]

Wow. I want to make sure I have this correct. Lets say I have 4 valves, A,B,C,D. I can tell the automation that macro one is: open, close, open close and macro two is close, open,close,open but i cannot then say macro 3 is open, open, close, close and schedule them at will?

If the valve is already in the correct position will the automation "know" not to activate it?

With non "smart" controllers, and just using the standard automatic valve configuration, the connection is one-way. The automation has no way of knowing what the valve is doing, what state it is in, or even if there is an automated valve attached.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Chris,

A better way to look at this... once the automation and actuator are in sync, they should stay that way... But.. the automation has no way to know where the actuator is, so if something goes wrong, the automation will never know.. As an example.. if the actuator fails, a wire breaks, the control relay does not work, or someone flips the little switch, the automation will just keep thinking things are working..

Are you planning on building your own automation, or are you planning on using an existing system??

Jim R.

 

[CRUSH-IT!]

I am re doing my pad. And am formulating a plan. I am very much inclined to use a 3hp pentair intelliflo XF VSF without SVRS. SVRS can be a problem with solar. I plant to install heliocol solar. hayward C200S cartridge filter. I will keep the existing hayward propane heater. Because I am using a pentair pump I am inclined to go with pentair automation, (IntelliCenter with expansion for a 5th actuator) . I will add an SWG. I have not looked into that a great deal. I have had auto pilot in the past. If I go with pentair it may save me a small amount. It will then be programmable with the app which I really do not need. (how often do I really need to adjust the chlorine output anyway). I like the hayward swg and might do that.

I get the actuators and the flip switch. If you have a simple spillover, with spillover mode the intake opens to pool and the returns open to spa, at least partly. With spa mode the intake turns to spa drain and the return rotates to spa jets. My main question is: If I schedule a third macro or theme that requires a mix of these like spa jets open and pool drain open will the automation be able to move the valves to this point independent of the configuration at the time the macro initiates. So whether it is on spa mode or spillover mode it will go to the new theme correctly.

I feel I have expressed this poorly. I hope you get what Im getting at.

Does the automation "think" i have valve A open and B open the schedule says I now need A closed and B open. I will activate A and do nothing with B. Or if A and B are closed the automation will activate B and do nothing with A?

 

[CRUSH-IT!]

Once you have it synched does the automation behave as if it understands what position the valves are in?

 

[CRUSH-IT!]

I apologize because I feel I am being confusing. For ease of nomenclature lets say each valve has two positions, open and closed. and I have 4 valves. Can I schedule the valves to go through a daily cycle of:

open closed open closed
closed closed open closed
open open closed closed
open open open open.

Can the automation do that?

 

[PoolGate]

The valves are assigned to a permanent "Aux". That aux is what you would control. And yes, the automation "knows" what state that aux is in. So if you call for whatever is assigned to that aux, it will activate, or deactivate.

In the below print screens, you can see the assignment of the JVAs. "Cleaner" and "Return" are my 2 JVAs. They are assigned to "Rockfall" and "Sheer Descent". Aqualink knows if they are "ON" or "OFF".

 

[setsailsoon]

I apologize because I feel I am being confusing. For ease of nomenclature lets say each valve has two positions, open and closed. and I have 4 valves. Can I schedule the valves to go through a daily cycle of:

open closed open closed
closed closed open closed
open open closed closed
open open open open.

Can the automation do that?

Chris,

How are you planning to do this? Are you using smart switches or something? What software are you planning to use to configure the macros?

The valve actuators are very simple as shown in the diagram that Jim displayed above. Each valve actuator wire has 3 conductors, one neutral and two "hot" with 24vac wires (call them A and B). When power is applied to A the valve moves one way. B works the opposite. There's a switch on the actuator that can change the wiring internally so it works the opposite. Also, all actuators can be adjusted so that the stop for A and B can be changed but the stop can't be adjusted on the fly you have to do that manually at the actuator (at least for now). You can change the configuration of the control system (Hayward, Jandy, or Pentair) to open or close any valve on a schedule or by certain events. The simple example is spa mode which just changes the intake and return 3 way valves from intake from skimmer to spa drain and the output of the pump valve position to the spa. Both valves have two positions and all the controller is doing is changing the power between "A" and "B" on the 3 conductor wire that goes to each actuator. There are other ways to control other equipment. For example I have a bypass valve on my solar system when the temp sensor located on the solar collector gets to my setting for soar heat the hot side on the 3 conductor wire to the bypass valve changes from "A" to "B" and the bypass valve closes.

The configuration software is a little different for each brand system. But they all accomplish the same thing. Each brand has a few special features the others don't have that allow certain sensors to trigger events and to control certain equipment via their proprietary RS 485 protocol for their brand pumps and swg. But they all accomplish the same basic function. The differences are pretty small in some cases. For example Jandy offers calibration of temp sensors but only up to 3 deg F. Pentair offers up to 12 deg calibration. A major difference between all 3 is that the new more expensive Intellicenter by Pentair is a very modular design so it's easy and potentially cheaper to expand. It also has some additional configuration options like allowing changes to the lead-lag in the solar controls. But for now, on brands valves really do only one thing which is switch between A and B on the 3 conductor wire. We're all hopeful they will soon implement better control than that so you can also change the position of the valve remotely. But that hasn't happened yet.

I hope this helps.

Chris

 

[Jimrahbe]

Chris,

I think you are giving pool automation systems more capability then they actually have...

They are designed around specific functions.. Most standard units come with 4 actuator drivers.. BUT.. two of them only work when to switch the Intake and Return valves between the Pool Mode and the Spa mode.. or the Spillover mode.. You can't tell these valves to move when you want... they are preprogrammed into the system operation and this is something you can't change. The other two valves are called A and B. You can tell these valve to move anytime you want. With the IntelliCenter you can add more valve drivers and they would be C, D, etc..

I just think you are making this much more complicated than it really needs to be..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[setsailsoon]

Chris,

I think you are giving pool automation systems more capability then they actually have...

They are designed around specific functions.. Most standard units come with 4 actuator drivers.. BUT.. two of them only work when to switch the Intake and Return valves between the Pool Mode and the Spa mode.. or the Spillover mode.. You can't tell these valves to move when you want... they are preprogrammed into the system operation and this is something you can't change. The other two valves are called A and B. You can tell these valve to move anytime you want. With the IntelliCenter you can add more valve drivers and they would be C, D, etc..

I just think you are making this much more complicated than it really needs to be..

Thanks,

Jim R.

Jim,

Yep, too true. What I said only works for A and B valves or C and D... I'm really amazed at how limited the control we get for all the money. At the end of the day it only opens and closes a valve for an input. Seems like for all that money it would do more. That said, I do like watching the motor speed change after I hear the heater gas relay click. I'm definitely too much of a dork!

Chris

 

[CRUSH-IT!]

Thank-you for all of your thoughts. they really are helpful. I have adjusted the actuators at my old house and am familiar with their stop switches. My main question was re: whether the automation "knows" valve location and "acts" accordingly. I had pentair easy touch at my prior house so I get the spa mode and spillover logic (the first two aux) somewhat... if not entirely. You guys have been very generous with your time and posts. over the next few days I hope to post a diagram of my intended new pad for comment. I am sure your insights will be helpful. At my last place I dropped the operating pressure by half, improved flow and functionality of the unground cleaners, spillover and solar all while reducing the pump from 2hp to 1hp. That plumbing was however notably problematic to start with. You guys have an awful lot of knowledge and I am sure you will have valuable insights when I figure out how to post the diagram.

Chris

 

[jonpcar]

@CRUSH-IT! , I’ve been interested in this thread because I am currently working on a project that controls my valve positioning. Here are a couple comments that may help...or it could confuse it even more, haha.

The previous commenters are all consistent in that there currently are no consumer pool control systems that “know” valve position (via actual feedback). Jandys SmartJVA “thinks” they know the valve position because their system is capable of telling a valve where to move, and they assume it goes there as requested. Pentair intelliValves are an unknown at this point until they release their control software. But for your case, it doesn’t seem to matter...because you do not seem concerned with valve positions other than 100% open or 100% closed.

Maybe this answers your main question...there is NO problem with attempting to open an already-OPEN valve by driving the correct voltages on the wires to the valve (vice-versa for already-CLOSED valves). The micro-switches, which are not shown in Jim’s simplified diagram, prevent the motor from turning on again and the valve simply remains OPEN. That is how all consumer pool controllers work...if they want a valve open, they drive the voltages to open it and don’t care if it is alreay open.

Part of the confusion is because of your desire to control FOUR valves’ ON/OFF positions independently. This is not possible with most pool controllers (exceptions like intelliCenter via Valve expansion). Most can only control up to THREE (with an additional fourth valve that is sync-locked to operation of one of those three for pool/spa flow, as Jim described).

So, what pool controller are you planning to use/develop? You mentioned “macros”...what specific hardware are these “macros” targeted to?

At my last place I dropped the operating pressure by half, improved flow and functionality of the unground cleaners

Your last post intrigued me a bit as well...assuming you meant “in-ground cleaner” (In-Floor-Cleaning-System??), do you have one on your current pool? I’ve done a lot of work on mine and have some further changes that I am implementing. So I’ll be really interested with what your “plans” are related to that.

 

[CRUSH-IT!]

Jonpcar,

your summary is excellent! it hits exactly what I was getting at. I will submit my diagram of my proposed pad revision and a description of my goals and why I am doing it that way. I will then open myself up to "review" I hope to do this in the next week things are getting a bit busy here. I plan to use IntelliCenter and an expansion. My old pool had an in-floor cleaning system. I think it was polaris. I do not have one here at my new house. I may be able to get by with linking two of the valves such as spa mode but will use an expansion either way because its actually worse, (loonier) than you think. I expect to actually have 5 valves. I'm actually not going for a Rube Goldberg contraption. I will put up my proposal when I get a chance and look forward to advice, simplification, etc. I

I am no expert but I "re-did" my in-ground cleaning system. New heads, new manifold valve box thingy, new plumbing and check valve. The only "returns" to the pool were the in floor heads. the old house did have a spill over as well.

Thanks,

Chris