UPDATE - Cancelling Attempt to bring 12V light back in working order

[ajw22]

It is then logical, although electricians and homeowners have been known to do illogical things, that the LOAD1 wire from the Compool light relay feeds power to the two light transformer boxes.

I don't understand the type of lights that were installed and why the lights need the 30A green fuses and such large transformers. It looks like the LITE 120V CB is 20amps.

Can you show me the bulbs that were in the fixture?

Maybe @1poolman1 has seen this type of old equipment.

 

[ajw22]

So I think the question is how you safe off the corroded light system from live electrical lines?

I have ideas of what is going on but cannot tell for sure without physically tracing wires using a multimeter. I have given you clues on what to do and where to look. If it is beyond your capability then get an electrician to sort it out.

It is important you get this right since you lack GFCI CBs which is the first line of electrical safety that prevents shocks and worse at the pool.

 

[Raleigh999]

Let's first talk about your Circuit Breakers...

I thought you would have a semi modern electrical system with separate CBs for different pool devices and a GFCI CB dedicated to the Pool Lights. Turns out you don't.

You have writing on that panel that says:

• Filter - is that your pool filter? Which Cb does Filter apply to?
• Pool - what does that circuit feed?
  • You say your lights.
  • Does it power your Compool panel?
  • What else loses power at your pool when you turn it off?
  • Does it power your heater?
  • That is the only 240V CB to the pool and your Intelliflo VS pump is 240V. Does that power your pump?
• Blower - Does that power your spa blower? Your Spa Blower power runs through a relay in the Compool panel.
• Lite?? - did someone mean Light? What light? Where? Is that the CB for your Pool Lights?

Current codes require GFCI CBs for pumps, heaters, and lights. While you are grandfathered most electricians will not work on a panel or equipment without upgrading required CBs to GFCI. For safety reasons even as a DIY homeowner you should do the same.

We had reason to be confident that dealing with changing the light was safe. We first spoke with our pool maintenance service and they confirmed which breaker on the panel was for the pool equipment. The second 240V breaker in the photo (there are only two 240V breakers) controls the pool equipment. I noted that shutting it off audibly turned off the pump and stopped any motion in the water, and took that as confirmation. The user toggle switch at the pool for lights, spa jet, heater were also in the off position. The light is on a low-voltage (12V not 120V) system. Then we began to work with the light all in a similar fashion to the guy who was hired to change the light last year, for $200, which failed thereafter. I had no intention to get involved in anything other than dealing with the pool and spa light change, and possibly the in-deck J-box if it only involved corrosion. Nothing more than that. Please confirm if there was danger in that limited scope.

Note that the CB box has labels that span different periods of the past 50 years. The cursive writing on labels is the original notation. The black pen writing with "Pool" is this week. The blue pen writing for "Filter," "Blower," and "Lite" seem not to control anything for the pool, though they may have at one time, as the spa jets and the pool pump do not respond to the Blower CB being off.

Are 12V systems typically retrofitted with GFCI for safety, or is that somewhat redundant? I've read repeatedly that 12V lines are much safer and perhaps don't require it.

At this stage, I'm not interested in spending additional time, effort, or money, and simply wish to mount the fixture back in the pool and put the J-box cover back on if that is safe to do and doesn't risk introducing more damage. I don't know if we should bother with a new O-ring for a non-used light, puttying up the conduit exit point behind the light, or filling that J-box with putty again like it was (though it's been said here that that accomplished nothing, but it may have been done for some reason in the first place, as all this as done by installers and professionals over the years).

 

[Raleigh999]

It is then logical, although electricians and homeowners have been known to do illogical things, that the LOAD1 wire from the Compool light relay feeds power to the two light transformer boxes.

I don't understand the type of lights that were installed and why the lights need the 30A green fuses and such large transformers. It looks like the LITE 120V CB is 20amps.

Can you show me the bulbs that were in the fixture?

Maybe @1poolman1 has seen this type of old equipment.

Attached is a photo of just the pool bulb. I was not able to remove the spa bulb - the spa fixture could not be brought to the deck surface as the line was much too short. Perhaps any pool putty around the line has now been dislodged and from lightly tugging on the fixture to try to take it out. Risk?

Anyway, these photos confirm here that the pool bulb is 12V, 300W incandescent.

 

[ajw22]

We had reason to be confident that dealing with changing the light was safe. We first spoke with our pool maintenance service and they confirmed which breaker on the panel was for the pool equipment.

This label on the transformer show 120V in and 12 V out.

It is unlikely a 240V CB will be connected to a 120V input transformer.

Something is not right and I urge you to get an electrician in to physically check your understanding.

 

[Raleigh999]

I noticed that on the transformer as well. We have used this pool for 40 years, with, I believe, the identical lighting system, and now it's a completely new can of worms. Would taking out the fuses kill the connection to the pool lights? How I wish I hadn't brought the light out. Do we get a general contractor electrician, or are they specific to pool equipment? Such a can of worms.

 

[ajw22]

Would taking out the fuses kill the connection to the pool lights? How I wish I hadn't brought the light out.

I can't say for sure but it looks like that 30amp fuse is on the 12V side. The wiring label on the transformer says "25 AMP MAX OUTPUT" for the 12V and shows the symbol for a fuse in the 12V circuit.

If that is correct then removing the fuses would stop any voltage output from the transformer boxes to the pool.

Can you post a clearer picture of that label?

 

[Raleigh999]

I tried testing the light bulb receptical with a voltmeter earlier. It barely flickered, and did not move at all with power cut at switch. But the connections at the j-box are such a mess to even get good contact on.

 

[ajw22]

I see now that the transformer has a 12V tap and a 13V tap.

Everything shows those boxes would be powered by a 120V CB, not a 240V CB.

 

[Raleigh999]

Throwing the 240 switch audibly shuts off pool equipment. The one labeled "Lite", however, may have been to the light but seemed not active only because there's a break in continuity in the system.

1. How much to pay a tech to come put the non-working light back and make sure nothing is live that shouldn't be, and things are properly sealed? Cheaper option

2. How much to pay to have LED light installed and everything brought in line? A service guy told us there are likely problems with introducing any LED to a 12V system - it's not just a bulb swap. But if so, why are 12V bulbs billed as a plug and play option?

 

[ajw22]

There are 12V LED bulbs that screw into a standard Edison base. I don’t know why a service guy told you what he did.

Given all that I have seen of the wiring from the transformer to the pool I would not use any of it. That round junction box is too close to the pool and does not meet current codes. All the pool light wiring connecting to the Compool panel needs to be replaced for safety.

 

[Raleigh999]

How do I safely kill the pool lighting electronics? I don't really need or want it if it takes more than a couple hours (it's now consumed 2 days) or >$100. I urgently need to get back to life and other affairs and cease pouring into this counterproductive time sinkhole. All I am looking to do now is safely put the fixture back in and clean up this garish mess before guests arrive in a few days so I can have some sanity returned. If I have 1 more hour to give this, what do I do to safely put the fixture back and make sure no lighting-related risk persists? I don't want a new system, nor to repair this one.

 

[Raleigh999]

There are 12V LED bulbs that screw into a standard Edison base. I don’t know why a service guy told you what he did.

Given that we all know 12V LED bulbs exists, it makes no sense what the service guy said at all. I asked for clarification and he very vaguely hinted towards something else being involved that would prohibit using 12V LEDs in a plug & play manner in general it seemed, but failed to elaborate when prompted. Appears to be unwelcome nonsense and trust destroying.

Given all that I have seen of the wiring from the transformer to the pool I would not use any of it.

"... I wouldn't use any of it" ... just specifically any of the pool light wiring - the whole lighting system - you mean, and not anything else. Is that what you mean?

​

 

[ajw22]

"... I wouldn't use any of it" ... just specifically any of the pool light wiring - the whole lighting system - you mean, and not anything else. Is that what you mean?

Neither the transformers or the junction boxes conform to current NEC and safety standards.

I would not use any of the lighting system from the transformers to the light fixtures. New 12V transformers need to be installed, along with a pool light junction box that is no less then 4' from the water and 8″ above the maximum possible water level, that all will likely require new fixtures as the existing wires will not reach new junction boxes.

The new light system transfomers can be wired to the existing Compool panel.

On Underwater Pool Lighting

Codes require wiring for pool lighting terminate in an approved junction box...

www.poolmagazine.com

 

[Raleigh999]

Neither the transformers or the junction boxes conform to current NEC and safety standards.

I would not use any of the lighting system from the transformers to the light fixtures. New 12V transformers need to be installed, along with a pool light junction box that is no less then 4' from the water and 8″ above the maximum possible water level, that all will likely require new fixtures as the existing wires will not reach new junction boxes.

The new light system transfomers can be wired to the existing Compool panel.

View attachment 516484

On Underwater Pool Lighting

Codes require wiring for pool lighting terminate in an approved junction box...

www.poolmagazine.com

Ok, that's clear - was just trying to determine if by "any of it" you meant anything to do with the entire pool/pump/filter/powered system, not just the lighting. Needed elaboration as to what "it" is. Thank you.


At this stage, what I gather can be done in short order is to leave the CB switch labeled "Lite" under "Pool" off, fill the pool light fixture niche at the cord with pool putty, fill the corroded mess of a J-box on the deck with putty again just as it was under the "pros" who put it in like that, and reinstall the pool light. Never turn on. Thoughts? Now...

1. Is there much point in installing a new O-ring, as per normal protocol, on a condemned light in terms of safety?

2. And If we're never using that light again until we or a new owner wishes to install an LED and/or redo wiring, why not putty in the socket for added protection (since the old O-ring will be there, and which has a corroded lens frame that pokes unevenly at the O-ring, thus a water leakage risk)? Though the O-ring successfully protected the bulb which tested good, now after pulling it apart it may not seal well again, and thus the question of using putty in the socket to stop any exposure contact to water.

3. Is there any point to removing the transformer fuses - advisable or not? (If they don't go to just the light - do they?)

4. Anything else that can be done quick (to safely repack the light and get out of this mess)? The spa light couldn't be pulled (cord too short to reach deck) so similar concerns about possibly having loosened the conduit and putty/sealant around it, leading to water reaching the J-box, which now seems constantly moist since the intervention.

Please note this thread was merged with a second thread I began titled. "Cancelling attempt to repair light. How to safely repack everything?" The emphasis now is on that latter half.

 

[ajw22]

I would not bother filling the J-Box or the socket with Pool Putty. That is not going to accomplish anything.

Remove the green fuses from the transformers.

Identify which LOAD wire is connected to AUX2 - the light. And disconnect it at the Compool panel.

Does your blower work if you turn it on?

Do you understand the Compool wiring I annotated below?

 

[Raleigh999]

Okay

I would not bother filling the J-Box or the socket with Pool Putty. That is not going to accomplish anything.

Remove the green fuses from the transformers.

Identify which LOAD wire is connected to AUX2 - the light. And disconnect it at the Compool panel.

Does your blower work if you turn it on?

Do you understand the Compool wiring I annotated below?

1. "Identify which LOAD wire is connected to AUX2 - the light. And disconnect it at the Compool panel."
Does this mean to unplug (or unscrew and cap off) the wires labeled AUX2 shown in the annotated photo of the gold colored metal box? I'm attaching a second photo of it.

2. "Does your blower work if you turn it on?"
Yes, if blower refers to spa jets. They stop working if the CB labeled "Blower" is off AND if the CB Blower switch is on while the CB switch labeled "Pool" (240V) is off. They're dependent. Same for "Filter" it seems.

3. "Do you understand the Compool wiring I annotated?"
It's very clearly annotated (thanks), but I'd need strict guidance on doing anything inside there.

4. In the photo of the Compool "relay" panel (I believe it's called, correct me if not), for the toggle switch labeled "SPA" encircled in the pic, there are 2 positions: "SPA" in the up position and "POOL" in the down position. Is this a logical naming scheme; what does this toggle do?

5. Forget using a new pool light o-ring? Don't apply putty to even the back of the light niche where the cable goes, spa and pool?

 

[ajw22]

Okay

1. "Identify which LOAD wire is connected to AUX2 - the light. And disconnect it at the Compool panel."
Does this mean to unplug (or unscrew and cap off) the wires labeled AUX2 shown in the annotated photo of the gold colored metal box? I'm attaching a second photo of it.

You do not disconnect anything at the actual relays in this pic.

You disconnect at the white connector block on the right side of the panel...

2. "Does your blower work if you turn it on?"
Yes, if blower refers to spa jets. They stop working if the CB labeled "Blower" is off AND if the CB Blower switch is on while the CB switch labeled "Pool" (240V) is off. They're dependent. Same for "Filter" it seems.

The POOL CB turns off power to the Compool panel at the wires indicated by the red dots. When you turn off power to the Compool panel it turns off power to all devices.

The BLOWER CB turns off power to the LINE1 connection for the blower.

3. "Do you understand the Compool wiring I annotated?"
It's very clearly annotated (thanks), but I'd need strict guidance on doing anything inside there.

As I said in prior posts you must physically verify which connectors go to AUX1 and AUX2. I only took a guess on what I labeled in the pic.

I put a green dot and a blue dot on the LOAD wire connections for AUX1 and AUX2 in the pic above.

Do you know how to test for voltage using your Multimeter at the white connector screws?

4. In the photo of the Compool "relay" panel (I believe it's called, correct me if not), for the toggle switch labeled "SPA" encircled in the pic, there are 2 positions: "SPA" in the up position and "POOL" in the down position. Is this a logical naming scheme; what does this toggle do?

That should cause the actuators on the SUCTION and RETURN valves to rotate to direct the water flow to the pool or spa.

5. Forget using a new pool light o-ring?

I don;t think it matters. Whatever you want to do.

Don't apply putty to even the back of the light niche where the cable goes, spa and pool?

You can plug that hole although the conduit is made to be flooded. It can stop a leak if there is a break in the conduit letting water leak out.

 

[ajw22]

Do you have a Non Contact Voltage Tester to confirm that there is no voltage on wires before you touch them?

Klein Tools’® New Non-Contact Voltage Testers Easily Switch Between Dual Ranges

Klein Tools is committed to American Manufacturing, since 1857. For over 160 years, Klein Tools has remained dedicated to professional tradesmen worldwide, with a commitment to manufacturing the world's finest hand tools right here in America. We don't just make great products, we make great...

www.kleintools.com

 

[Raleigh999]

Do you have a Non Contact Voltage Tester to confirm that there is no voltage on wires before you touch them?

Klein Tools’® New Non-Contact Voltage Testers Easily Switch Between Dual Ranges

Klein Tools is committed to American Manufacturing, since 1857. For over 160 years, Klein Tools has remained dedicated to professional tradesmen worldwide, with a commitment to manufacturing the world's finest hand tools right here in America. We don't just make great products, we make great...

www.kleintools.com

This is the voltmeter I have - what do I set it to (if it's acceptable) and where do I touch the other lead to? Presume when testing what's labeled AUX1 in purple, I place the red or black lead from the meter on the screw head marked in purple, but where does the other lead go? This is with the Blower and 240 Pool CB on, but Lite off. Repeat same for Lite and AUX2 with Blower CB off. If I then get power readings for each, it means they're labeled correctly in the annotated pic?

And then unscrew the one purple marked screw, cap it off, and then... it's done?

Also pictured is the putty and silicone product just bought to do this, along with the lens holder.(some corrosion its edge where it should be flat against the ring visible) and the ring.

Lastly, the pool and spa, sundown, this week.