Unexplained FC Consumption - SOLVED - although the Mystery Remains

Re: Unexplained FC Consumption (updated title)

Seems like this is going around. I'm having a similar problem and cannot defeat it. I blame a new Zombie strain of algae... LOL :D

Seriously though... it turns the pool into a chlorine eating machine. I've went through four cases of Tandil in 7 days. Pool is clear, but something is eating my chlorine. All pool toys are in... ladder is out... I'm at a loss too. I'm thinking borating and getting SWG to just get a leg up on the Zombie Algae...

And I've been brushing like crazy... testing... my neighbor gives me strange looks over the fence while I stare at test tubes... LOL :D
 
Unexplained FC Consumption (updated title)

And I've been brushing like crazy... testing... my neighbor gives me strange looks over the fence while I stare at test tubes... LOL :D

He's gonna call the Dept of Homeland Security on you :p

Ok, so let's break it down to basics and list what we know causes FC loss-

1. Sunlight (with low CYA)
2. Algae (standard or new Zombie strain) and critters
3. Ammonia
4. Organic compounds
5. Excessive CYA causing Cl binding
6. Water loss
7. Really sweaty nasty people, aka bather load
8. Peroxide
9. Metals

Am I missing anything?


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Re: Unexplained FC Consumption (updated title)

He's gonna call the Dept of Homeland Security on you :p

2. Algae (standard or new Zombie strain) and critters
7. Really sweaty nasty people, aka bather load

HAHA, BAHAHA!!
ZOMBIE ALGAE!!!??? Oh no, it has begun!! HAHA :p
Oh my, that's just all too funny!! :D

The neighbor might be thinking he's making some sort of EVIL CHEMICAL SOUP in his backyard pool. Bruuuwwhahahaha 3:) :p

Might want to do your testing inside. ;) HEEE

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Unexplained FC Consumption (updated title)

FOCUS PEOPLE!!

We're trying help Mr toofast with his freakazoid pool issues! Anymore off topic comments and you will be reported to the ModSquad for demerits and, possibly a trip to re-education camp ;)

Now, back to the topic at hand....Zombie Algae....

(/snark)

Toofast,

I'm really out of ideas here. But I really do hope someone else way smarter than me can come to the rescue.

Did you ask your pool store salesman for help.....OH SNAP!! That level of snark is gonna get me banned for life :eek:


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Re: Unexplained FC Consumption (updated title)

He's gonna call the Dept of Homeland Security on you :p

Ok, so let's break it down to basics and list what we know causes FC loss-

1. Sunlight (with low CYA)
2. Algae (standard or new Zombie strain) and critters
3. Ammonia
4. Organic compounds
5. Excessive CYA causing Cl binding
6. Water loss
7. Really sweaty nasty people, aka bather load
8. Peroxide
9. Metals

Am I missing anything?


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So this is a good list....

1. Sunlight (with low CYA) - well my CYA was 40, now 30 and I am covered most the time, but if my CYA is still dropping for unknown reasons - this is possible. Although last year I kept CYA at 30 and lost 2 PPM a day on average.

2. Algae (standard or new Zombie strain) and critters - well I don't see it, unless the "dirt" is algae that is instantly being killed off and looking like dirt...is there a way to test the residue to verify ? Geez....I just thought of this, thanks for the push in the right direction.

3. Ammonia - never had issues with CC, so I assumed I am ok.

4. Organic compounds - well I do get some dirt when the wind blows, but this issue continues with or without blowing dirt ,unless the dirt is introducing organic compounds, that instantly die but do consume chlorine...is there a way to test for certain organic compounds ?

5. Excessive CYA causing Cl binding - Nope

6. Water loss - Nope (autofill off and water never lowers)

7. Really sweaty nasty people, aka bather load - Nope, unless they are sneaking in at night.

8. Peroxide - never heard of this, where and how does this get introduced and how do I test ?

9. Metals - never tested, how do / should I test for this.

- - - Updated - - -

You have covered so many possible explanations we are into the realm of the unknown so to speak and I am trying to act like Sherlock here and think about what is different during the day because that is when you are losing all your CL. Of course the sun is out and we know about sun and how fast you can lose CL BUT what intrigues me most id your recurring lament as to "what is different this year!" I feel really bad for you and very sympathetic. So here is my latest wild hare of an idea.....

What if there is a physical (as opposed to chemical) difference this year and it only occurs during the day. If the physical difference affected water flow dynamics it could have some interesting effects on circulation and chlorine concentrations and algae control. What if something has changed with the fluid dynamics compared to last year and it only matters or happens during the day?

My half-baked idea says maybe something happened to restrict or impair water flow since last year. Could be an obstruction in a return line, filter media clog somewhere, slight impeller damage, or even something electronic affecting RPM'S which could affect GPM's. What I am getting at is what if GPM flow in some parts or all of your plumbing is different this year?

Furthermore, what if that difference is most noticeable when pump is on and running at the speed you normally use during the day? If this were true, it MIGHT explain why you have passed OCLT but go through chlorine like crazy during daylight hours. I know this is really a stretch and possibly just another rabbit hole but we are at the point of looking into odd corners and strange explanations here aren't we since you have already tried SO many things.

So, how could you begin to test for something like what I suggest?

* You could change the routine ONE variable at a time and see if anything changed. alter pump speed, run times, stenner settings, etc. and see if ANYTHING causes a displacement of the problem from daylight to nighttime.

* Do you have a GPM flow-rate meter in your plumbing system that you can monitor? If so any way to compare this year's readings to last year's?

*Is there a way you can test for CL concentration in a sample of water right at the return which should be just downstream from the stenner and compare that to a sample taken at the skimmer?

*Can you isolate any sections of the plumbing during the day (waterfall, spa, etc.) and see if pattern of problem changes.

*What about aussieta's idea to leave pump off during the day when you are home? I know it is scary for us to shut off filtering and chlorination in the sunlight but you could add liquid chlorine and mix it up then shut down pump and see how fast the water in the pool eats all that chlorine and in so doing you would "sort-of" isolate the plumbing system from the pool

OK, just brainstorming here trying to come up with something that might point in the direction of why so much CL consumed during day....that is some explanation other than just the sun.

Too much to respond...but some of your ideas are right on...I think at this point I have to try everything and anything and try to keep some order to what I am testing. Part of my problem is that I am never home in long enough periods to really focus....ARGHHHHHHHHHHHH

I think the pump (leaving it on high and then on off) is a good way to try and isolate stuff.
 
Re: Unexplained FC Consumption (updated title)

Ok, so I've FINALLY seen someone (I think aussie) post this in another thread:

also a small amount of borates allows algae to grow
do a bit of searching not sure at what level
but i do remember low level borates actually promoted algae growth more than zero borates


Well guess what, for some reason my pH has floated down (do to adding all the CYA that is disappearing)

I've added quite a bit more Borax to increase my pH than last year...so WHAT if the above statement is true....and I have enough Borates (does Borax contribute to that) to promote algae growth, but it is never sticking as I have enough FC to kill it yet that action is consuming the FC like mad.

This is the FIRST variation from last year that I've found...might I be on to something and if so, how do I test or counteract ?
 

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Re: Unexplained FC Consumption (updated title)

I am a bit confused now :)

I do think it was you that posted a bit of borates actually cause algae...is this true and where did you find that ? Was it in the 26 page thread, that I have actually read a while ago but of course forgot most of the details.

Chemgeek's post #198 in that thread indicates that low borates, below 30ppm, can be food for algae, somewhat like phosphates. But is irrelevant in a properly chlorinated pool. So they do not directly result in algae growth. At and above around 30ppm, they begin to yield algistatic properties.

He doesn't say that it creates a Cl load, or reduces cya, which is what's going on.

What sort of cover do you have? IIRC it's just a solar cover, is it completely opaque? If it isn't, then your pool is getting UV, this is eating the your FC during the day, consuming Cl from the Stenner.
30ppm cya is QUITE LOW, with water temps hitting 90deg.

This would explain your high daytime loss, and low nighttime loss. Raise your cya, and logic dictates, assuming there are no other issues at hand, as yet to be discovered, that the problem should then go away.

I would ask why you are running such a low cya in the 1st place? Ie. What is your reasoning for this?
The more sun, heat, and hotter the water temps, the more cya you need, to a point. I'd say you need to be shooting for a cya level of 50ppm, adjusting your Stenner accordingly to maintain FC levels decently above minimum.

It seems to me, being incredibly analytical myself, that this problem has become too complicated, and is really just something as basic as too low a cya for this years weather. Many people on TFP, myself included, are experiencing higher than usual FC loss this summer, over prior summers that is. So this would not be out of line.

EDIT: As for the stuff on the bottom of the pool, I get that too, it's fine fine dirt that blows into the pool, and falls out of solution, precipitating to the pool floor before the filter can catch it all. I was able to determine this by actually getting in the pool, very slowly, and analyzing it on the floor of the pool. Different dirt has different properties, but this fine dirt where I live actually behaves in an interlocking fashion like sand in that it seems to "cling" to the pool floor like it's somehow sticky. In fact, it likely is just very very fine sand.

If I disturb it with the motion of the brush, it disappears into solution. Even my rover can't get it all, as it has no brushes and the substance is otherwise too sticky for it all to release when the suction of the robot slowly passes over it.

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Re: Unexplained FC Consumption (updated title)

I'll admit, I haven't followed this post religiously, but I have kept an eye on it. And I went back and re-read the 1st page of posts. Two things occur to me, which I'm not sure they've been addressed. (If they have, I appologize).

First, have you ever really verified the strength of your bleach? Several times you dose an expected FC rise, then check it several hours later, and see massive expected drops, and blame phantom algae. Is it possible your bleach is compromised, and you got no such FC rise? To eliminate sun, I'd test FC numbers after the sun sets, add an expected 4 FC, then recheck after an 45 minutes. The FC should be exactly 4 FC higher.

You do mention you're using the exact same bleach as last year, however I've noticed with bleach I'm buying, that two bottles sitting on a shelf, side by side, can have Julian dates over 6 months different. Check date codes for freshness. With the above bleach FC check, I'd manual dose a known fresh bottle, and do another test with your Stenner one evening if you can.


Secondly, with CYA of 30, why oh why are you trying to keep your FC's up around 8? The CYA in my pool is around 50, and I keep it between 4 and 6. I dose to get to 6 in the evening, so I have max FC levels all evening, and most of the way through the day, with sunlight dropping the FC to 4 to 4.5 by the evening. If you insist on higher FC levels, rise your CYA to protect it from sunlight. I've noticed FC drops (mine are 1.5-2 per day) are NOT the same at even slightly higher FC numbers. I lose ~25% of FC per day, not 1.5-2ppm. Meaning when I shocked at 20, I lost 5-6 FC during the day. Nothing had changed, except more FC's were available for the sunlight to assault. I'm not sure what CYA 30's % of sunlight loss is, but surely it is higher than 25%, and more reason to avoid elevated FC levels.

Example: For CYA 30, the recommended FC levels are 2-4 ppm. Therefore, let us assume that at 30 CYA your loss to sunlight is 40% per day. Maybe that's high, I don't know. I know at my 50 it's close to 25-30%.

Anyhow, start at 4 FC in the morning, the day consumes 40% (1.6) you test at 2.5 FC in the evening. 1.5 ppm loss, still within CYA range, redose to 4 FC, all is well.

Or start at 8 FC in the next morning. The day consumes 40% (3.2), you test at 5 FC in the evening. 3 ppm loss, double what you lost the previous morning! Get chem geek on the phone, we got wonderous phantom algae!

And further more these examples will give HIGHER FC losses with continued dosing through the day, ESPECIALLY at the higher FC levels if you maintain those levels through the sunny period (Stenner pump). But rather just one test to get to 4 FC in the morning, perhaps recheck at 10 AM if you're nervous. Again at 2 pm, but there should be very little FC loss then.

Basically drop your FC level or increase your CYA level. Because at what you're running (per first page of thread) you're begging for higher FC loss.

(Ignore me if details have changed since first page).
 
Re: Unexplained FC Consumption (updated title)

I believe, but not certain, their CYA had started at 50 and dropped to 30. That is why he is stumped. He also frequently travels, so relies on the Stenner for dosing.

Have you ever gotten a kit to test for ammonia? I can't remember, lol.
 
Re: Unexplained FC Consumption (updated title)

Zombie Algae is real! I was right all along... Click Here... :D Because everything you read on the internet is true... :D

Who knew! I am also starting to think that the bleach could be the culprit... I am going to switch brands today and see if I can defeat the hordes of Zombie Algae that has invaded all of our pools!!!
 
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Re: Unexplained FC Consumption (updated title)

I believe, but not certain, their CYA had started at 50 and dropped to 30. That is why he is stumped. He also frequently travels, so relies on the Stenner for dosing.

Have you ever gotten a kit to test for ammonia? I can't remember, lol.

So I am back...I will respond to this one, then double back on the rest later. But YES I added enough Stablizer to get my CYA up to 50, yet at first it only tested 40 and now 30 :confused:

I do travel continuously, so yes I relay on the Stenner to dose.

Finally I never bought the ammonia test as I never had any CC of any significance, thus assumed I can't have ammonia.

Got back from the red eye - sort of awake, did my test and:

FC - 9.5
CC - .5

When I left I was at SLAM level of 12.5. I was dosing via the Stenner about 5.5 PPM of FC per day. So that means since Monday I added ~ 22 PPM of FC and I consumed all of it plus the 3 PPM from SLAM to 9.5.

Since my CYA is on the lower side, I guess that does not seem terrible. HOWEVER look at the picture below. HOW IN THE HECK IS ALGAE GROWING. This is my first visible sign - really or am I still sleeping. This is in the mouth of the skimmer. Now I have 3 suctions, and when I travel I leave the 2 main drains on in case my kids drops a toy in the skimmer thus clogging the intake...so I am not getting a ton of water flow, but still - this is nuts.



Here is the normal "dirt" I get in the pool, that sort of looks like sand/fine sand...but it is on the steps above the returns, so it can't be coming from the filter. As you can see the WATER is still super clear, yet I have visible growth.

 
Unexplained FC Consumption (updated title)

9. Metals - never tested, how do / should I test for this.

There are reagents and test strips you can purchase to specifically test for certain metals like iron (Fe) and copper (Cu).

Someone like Chem Geek would have to give you a detailed explanation of how metals can react with FC but I think this one is a long-shot. In order to react with FC I think the concentration would have to be so high that you would see other problems first, namely metal staining on your liner.




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Re: Unexplained FC Consumption (updated title)

That is a pretty pool!

I do wonder though................you say you are gone quite a bit............could some "friends" in the neighborhood be coming by to "check" out the pool?

Just an idea.

Kim
 

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