the "wrath" of TFP - test strips

[RMcGirr83]

I think he meant to say

"There is just a little bit too much love here for the TFTest branded kits"

I would question the accuracy statement though as reading the pH results is far from "accurate" given the scale on the tube (same with the CYA test and the disappearing dot). In fact all of the tests in the kit present a range as opposed to a definitive number. Repeatable, sure, accurate not so much.

 

[duraleigh]

Do you have an alternative that you think does as well? If there is something better on the market, TFP would certainly like to know about it.........just remember, price is a factor.

If you have several hundred or even thousands of dollars to spend on testing apparatus, you can very likely find testing equipment that exceeds the capabilities of the K-2006C or the TF-100. What do you gain from it? Nothing. Those two kits allow thousands and thousands of pool owners to have perfectly clear pools all season long and don't break the bank. TFP is all about that.

 

[Arizonarob]

Here’s one of the advantages of testing every day with either the TF100 or K2006c.
My first year of pool ownership I used to test daily, as time went on, that went down to every other day. And now I test once or twice a week.

I know my pool so well now, that I can spot something wrong with the water just by looking at it. By testing and tracking in the poolmath app, you’ll learn exactly what your pool needs throughout the year (for those of you that keep it open year round) and you can quickly fact check your chemical addition by running a quick test.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

There is some misinformation in this thread that needs to be corrected-

@Rattus Suffocatus - Taylor doesn't include dechlorinating drops with their R-0004/R-0014 because they are unnecessary. The phenol red test reagents already have dechlorinating chemicals in them and they are designed to create a pH-neutral change in FC. This is why the Taylor phenol red reagents are accurate up to 10ppm FC. All other brands of phenol red that require dechlorinating drops would not be accurate past 2-3ppm FC.

In general you DO NOT want to use R-0007 drops with the Taylor phenol red. When sodium thiosulfate reacts with chlorine, there are several dechlorinating reactions that can occur and none of them are pH neutral. That means if you add the R-0007, you will shift the pH of the resulting solutions. This is true for ALL pH reagents on the market. The non-Taylor ones that use dechlorinating drops are actually giving you a false pH reading because most of them use thiosulfate and, in almost all instances, the pH change is positive (meaning pH goes up). The assumption behind that is - (1) pool owners don't need a very accurate pH measurement so who cares, and (2) it's cheaper to use straight phenol red and thiosulfate then to actually try to formulate a reagent with pH neutral dechlorination. Taylor, on the other hand, uses two different dechlorinating reagents which keeps the pH change neutral.

Also, above the 10ppm FC, the pH test is not inaccurate. Above 10ppm FC, you start see the effects of chlorphenol red formation but between 10ppm and 20ppm the reaction is fairly slow. You can still do the pH test if you add the drops and do the reading pithing 10 to 15 secs. Above 25ppm FC, the chlorphenol red formation is too fast. However, there is an additional work-around that will still give accurate results on pH - take a pool water sample that has high FC (below 20ppm) and dilute it 1:1 with distilled water. Distilled water has very low to near zero alkalinity and a pH of about 7.0 or so. Because of that low alkalinity, there will be almost no shift in pH upon dilution but a reduction in half of the FC level. You then read your pH normally.

There is one problem with test strips - few if any are designed to work at an FC above 10ppm and most are designed to work at industry standard FC levels (1-3ppm FC). The multi-strips are usually the least accurate because all of the pads of chemicals are formulated on the assumption that your water is balanced at industry standard levels and those assumptions drive what chemicals are used on the pads. If your water is unbalanced in some way, then all of the readings can potentially way off. This is why using independent, drop-based reagents works better - you get accurate results that free from many of the interferences that can occur outside of a controlled testing lab.

 

[duraleigh]

Thanks, Matt. Sometimes we get sidetracked into discussions that do not account for the THOROUGH vetting of testing and test procedures we practice here at TFP. This is NOT TFP's first rodeo.

The clear science and your thorough knowledge of testing procedures helps us all stay on track.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Also I would say this - if you want a decent, low priced daily test kit to supplement your more expensive TF-100 or K-2006, then I would suggest you purchase a K-1004 residential troubleshooter test kit from Taylor. It costs around $40 but it can last multiple seasons. It’s easy to use and you can accurately test FC, CC, pH, TA and acid-demand with it. There are also work-arounds for testing higher FC levels with it all the way up to 10ppm FC. And it is way more accurate than OTO drops.

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

Interesting as I get identical results with both kits I use on everything both do (including pH). HOWEVER, if I were going to test over 10 FC I'd use my electronic meter anyway. The electronic meter is still a lot better than either though, but it's a pain to use correctly so I only do it periodically. I still don't like the Taylor TA test. It's unnecessarily complex compared to the other kits. now you are going to force me to experiment a bit.

I mainly have more than one kit for TA and to cross check my results occasionally. It's either that or have standards around which are bad enough for the pH meter...

The only strip test I ever though was at all acceptable so far was the Hach CYA test, but now I am going to say "no" to that because as they get close the expiration they suddenly read really high.

I used to do a lot of beer brewing and pH needs to be measured with far more accuracy than for pool use, and I have to admit that I was almost horrified about the uncertainty of the strips when I tried one (I was given them by the PB). But even the best drop tests wouldn't be adequate for mash water use,,,

 

[ajw22]

Interesting as I get identical results with both kits I use on everything both do (including pH). HOWEVER, if I were going to test over 10 FC I'd use my electronic meter anyway. The electronic meter is still a lot better than either though, but it's a pain to use correctly so I only do it periodically. I still don't like the Taylor TA test. It's unnecessarily complex compared to the other kits. now you are going to force me to experiment a bit.

What electronic meter do you use to test FC?

What other tests do you use for TA?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I still don't like the Taylor TA test. It's unnecessarily complex compared to the other kits. now you are going to force me to experiment a bit.

Not sure what you think is complicated about this test? It's considered the industry and regulatory standard for any kind of water processing.

See --> ASTM D 1067-06, Acidity or Alkalinity of Water, Test Method B. APHA Standard Methods, 23rd ed. OR Method 2320 B – 1997. USEPA Methods for Chemical Analysis of Water and Wastes, Method 310.1 (1983).

Since pool water is almost exclusively dominated by bicarbonate alkalinity, one only need to do the acid titration test down to a pH of 4.5 and you can skip the phenolphthalein alkalinity part of the test.

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

The Taylor color change has a one drop uncertainty in my practical use (I now know what "level" of color change is correct, so I can use the tests interchangeably). The "other kit" goes from purple to clear instantly. I just like the other kit's TA better. They give EXACTLY the same results.

I have a neighbor who is color blind and he had a heck of a time with the Taylor TA kit and he has no problem with the other kit. Since they give the same correct consistent result: both are good.

I am an electrical engineer and not a chemist (I almost majored in Chemical Engineering but decided not to when I found out 90% of the jobs were in the petroleum industry). So I would have to say this is one of the RARE cases for me that I don't care about what is happening under the hood, just the results. When I have more time, if I can ever retire, I might pick up my 17-yr old self's interest in chemistry again! I regret never taking a formal Organic Chemistry college class.

One of the valid criticisms (in my never humble opinion) of this web site is that the test kits are seen as something "sold" here. I know that's not true and even when they are they sold are not a high profit item. But to say that only Taylor makes good water testing kits is a fallacy and it helps to defeat the actual purpose of what we are trying to accomplish here. What is important is accurate and repeatable results.

A lot of people seem to hate LaMotte here. In the beer brewing water testing groups they are seen as the best. I suppose it depends, doesn't it? It's obvious from looking at their product line pool testing isn't a high priority for them.

But strips still suck. They are too uncertain. Just by design. I think they could be potentially made good if they had finer range.. but in most cases you can't accurately act based on strip information. They are too vague.

What I want to do now is try to neutralize a water sample down to almost zero with the chlorine neutralizer drops out of the other kit, and then see if the pH reading is different in a controlled environment among all of the tests at a couple of different starting Cl levels . I'll have to wait until the weekend though. OR whenever.

 

[duraleigh]

There's some incorrect information in the post above.

The end point of the TA test is absolute.....it's when the last drop you add makes no further color change.....simple

But to say that only Taylor makes good water testing kits is a fallacy

Who said that? They DO make the BEST but I don't recall anyone saying they make the ONLY good ones.

A lot of people seem to hate LaMotte here.

Who hates LaMotte? I have been on this forum every day since 2007 and I can NEVER remember anyone saying that. They may have but can you tell us who it is?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

The Taylor color change has a one drop uncertainty in my practical use (I now know what "level" of color change is correct, so I can use the tests interchangeably). The "other kit" goes from purple to clear instantly. I just like the other kit's TA better. They give EXACTLY the same results.

I have a neighbor who is color blind and he had a **** of a time with the Taylor TA kit and he has no problem with the other kit. Since they give the same correct consistent result: both are good.

I am an electrical engineer and not a chemist (I almost majored in Chemical Engineering but decided not to when I found out 90% of the jobs were in the petroleum industry). So I would have to say this is one of the RARE cases for me that I don't care about what is happening under the hood, just the results. When I have more time, if I can ever retire, I might pick up my 17-yr old self's interest in chemistry again! I regret never taking a formal Organic Chemistry college class.

One of the valid criticisms (in my never humble opinion) of this web site is that the test kits are seen as something "sold" here. I know that's not true and even when they are they sold are not a high profit item. But to say that only Taylor makes good water testing kits is a fallacy and it helps to defeat the actual purpose of what we are trying to accomplish here. What is important is accurate and repeatable results.

A lot of people seem to hate LaMotte here. In the beer brewing water testing groups they are seen as the best. I suppose it depends, doesn't it? It's obvious from looking at their product line pool testing isn't a high priority for them.

But strips still suck. They are too uncertain. Just by design. I think they could be potentially made good if they had finer range.. but in most cases you can't accurately act based on strip information. They are too vague.

What I want to do now is try to neutralize a water sample down to almost zero with the chlorine neutralizer drops out of the other kit, and then see if the pH reading is different in a controlled environment among all of the tests at a couple of different starting Cl levels . I'll have to wait until the weekend though. OR whenever.

If you want better precision from the Taylor TA test, simply use a larger water sample and double up the R-0007 & R-0008 drops. If you want 1ppm precision, you'll need a standard 250mL Erlenmeyer flask. You only have to add enough R-0008 to see a distinct green color. Then the drop count precision is 1 ppm/drop of R-0009. One can (and one has by you know who) used the TA test to chemically determine the volume of their pool. It works brilliantly every time and the transition from fully green to a fully red endpoint is what you are counting, not where the transition occurs.

I honestly think Hach makes some of the best water testing kits and reagents on the market. I've done a lot of chemistry in my life and their digital colorimeters blow LaMotte out of the water. LaMotte is a European company and so their biggest market is in the EU, the US pool market is small potatoes to them. Their ColorQ is nice little toy for pool owners that makes LaMotte a very handsome profit because people don't understand the difference between precision, tolerance and accuracy and they think anything digital is better (it's not and their ColorQ's rarely last a year without needing factory calibration). I can tell you straight away from my own background that far more consequential science and chemistry was done before the transistor was ever invented.


As for your experiment, save your time and money (reagents) as someone already did that -

Accurate pH test during shock levels with R-007?

Can R-007 be used to neutralize high FC before performing the pH test to get an accurate reading or will this further interfere with the chemistry?

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

Cool. I am not really trying to be a PITA anyway. LaMotte was very good to me because I talked with a couple of their scientists at Homebrewcon in 2017 when I went-- for probably at least an hour, and I actually got a little insight into their business. They are primarily food industry. Maybe only in this country. I didn't get into Europe. But for some strange reason, I and the other engineer who talked with them were magically randomly pulled to win one of their brewing water test kits.

For that purpose, brewing, I was highly impressed with the quality of their kit. More so than I am with the Taylor kit for pool use, but honestly by comparison what we do is far less critical. It's an apples to bowling balls comparison. It was a titration kit.

Their pool stuff does not look that impressive I completely agree.

I am going in to work almost every day as "essential" but I did not have to go in until 10 AM today. So I did a rare middle of the week full test... Twice... and all of the tests I had to do on both kits gave identical results on what the other more limited kit can do.

What is important is that you use a quality kit and figure out what you are doing and do it consistently. I wonder if a lot of people can't actually handle something more complex than strips, honestly.

Titration isn't difficult but I could see people being intimidated by it.

What might be good for me is that my TA finally is at 90 so I feel like I can finally order a SWCG in the next couple of weeks. Though my pH is still low at 7.2 I suppose the cell itself will pull that up... Now I ordered a K-1766 from a random source in a hurry and it oddly had R-0600-A in it instead of R-0630-A.... So. That might slow me down a bit. At least it was the cheaper of the two chemicals...

 

[YippeeSkippy]

Strips don;t give combined chloramine level

 

[cfherrman]

I read most of this thread, one thing is not mentioned.

Person has problem with pool, comes here, gets Taylor kit, listens to help, pool is clear and safe.

This is 100% repeatable, I have seen it many many times, it is not with any other form of testing. Good repeatable help on this forum is valued over something that maybe not work, burns them out and they go bye.

 

[cledee]

I used strictly strip and pool store testing last year and the PH reading was always wrong, TA was wrong half of the time and CYA was surprisingly in range. I compared my testing with the TF100 this year to the strips and the PH always shows between 7.0-7.2 even though i've tested up to 8.0 at times and I've added MA to lower it. TA was showing 160 on the strips but I got 100 on the tf100. FC shows low or none on the strip but on the drop test I will get 4FC. They are very unreliable, you are better off guessing based on what you have put in the pool then using the strips to determine if you need to modify your levels.

 

[TishTash]

I’ll go even further: Strips are poison. Not only are they inaccurate, they’re outright misleading. That’s a bad combo.