TF 100 Test kit arrived

[JasonLion]

It looks like you are doing well. The CC level and the loss of FC during the evening both indicate that you need to continue shocking. This final stage can get tedious, but it does end eventually.

This is one of the more dramatic incidents of ammonia on spring startup that I have seen. The only two cases that I know of that were worse were both pools that had been closed for a number of years.

 

[Johnny B]

4/19/09
Cloudy all day, no rain really
7:00pm, about 18 hours since added bleach
pH 7.2
FC 7.5 so added 2 gallons 1 quart 3 cups or 3.2 (96 oz) jugs (this time yesterday FC was 5.5)
CC 1, no change from yesterday
TA 110 (TA was 190 one week ago)
CH 350 (CH was 360 one week ago)
CYA 40 (CYA was 140-150 one week ago).
4/20/09
1:45am
Very little rain
about 6 hours since added bleach
FC 14.5 so added 21 oz of bleach
CC 1

Thanks for following Jason & Poolmom

 

[frustratedpoolmom]

Johnny,

According to the posts on this thread your CYA has always been 40ish.

I also think the earliest posts of higher TA were part error and the 110 is more accurate (and fine either way).

Has the sun been out at all? I can't believe how long it's taking for that CC to go down...(I wonder too does it have to be 'sunny' for the uv rays to help break down the CC?.)

Is there anywhere in your pool that doesn't get good circulation? (Just wondering here....)

BTW, when do we get to see some pics?

 

[Johnny B]

Johnny,

According to the posts on this thread your CYA has always been 40ish.

I also think the earliest posts of higher TA were part error and the 110 is more accurate (and fine either way).
Good

Has the sun been out at all?
No, was cloudy, rain expected, but only a drizzle. Same today but a tad more rain since 2am, will advise of amount tonight, I doubt 0.25" as of now
I can't believe how long it's taking for that CC to go down...(I wonder too does it have to be 'sunny' for the uv rays to help break down the CC?.)
Yes, Jason mentioned that I believe. UV braks down both the FC we want & the CC we don't want? I'll look into that later but don't want to overanalyze now

Is there anywhere in your pool that doesn't get good circulation? (Just wondering here....)
Doubtful, brand new skimmer line repair & tested, & drain appears to suck well the debris that I brush. Is there another way someone wants me to test darin performance? I think the amonia is just a longer haul, testing incompetence does't help but that should be a non-isuue now

BTW, when do we get to see some pics?

Here ya go. I'll get some of the pool that you're after, never shot for TFP purposes

 

[frustratedpoolmom]

Awe....Wilbur's cute!

 

[Johnny B]

4/20/09
7:15pm, about 17.5 hours since added bleach
pH 7.2 or just shy
FC 6 so added 3 gallons or 3.9 (96 oz) jugs
CC 1
Rainfall about 0.25” , mostly sunny today, very high winds putting lots of debris in pool, rain expected tonight.

4/21/09
1:30am, about 6 hours since added bleach, no rain yet
FC 13.5 so added 62oz bleach
CC 1

 

[Johnny B]

4/21/09
Very windy, blew in plenty
7:00pm about 17.5 hours since added bleach
pH 7.2 or just shy
FC 7 so added 2 gallons 2 quarts or 3.4 (96 oz) jugs
CC 1

4/22/09
1:30am about 6.5 hours since added bleach
FC 14 so added 41 oz of bleach
CC 1

Is it helpful to test & shock it twice daily? I’ll do it if so, but if it’s not that important I’d rather not. I’m up so that isn’t a problem, simply asking, don’t want to perform what isn’t necessary.

Poolmom wanted more photos so I'll attach in a separate post-to delete after she has enjoyed it.

 

[Johnny B]

 

[JasonLion]

There is no need to continue testing and adding chlorine more than once a day. Your FC level is staying well above zero over long periods of time, so you can add chlorine less frequently without slowing down the process at all.

 

[frustratedpoolmom]

Hang in there Johnny...your's is a very extreme case and it's going to take time to brake down the last of those stubborn CC's - sunlight will help. Your PO patience will be tested for sure. But the good news is your FC is holding for long periods! So now like Jason said, just shock once in the evening/nighttime hours. Hopefully before long we'll see that CC drop to .5!

 

[Johnny B]

Thanks guys.
I forgot to ask about pump run time as well.
Earlier in this amonia situation, Jason said I got to a point where I could reduce pump time, so I did- from 2:30am-9:45am it is Off.
I've read to keep it going a few hours after adding chemicals.
I've read about how to tweek it in a balanced pool, & that each pool's circumstances vary even w time of year etc.
I've read about "keep it running 24/7 while shocking" but that seems to apply more to algae (I think), and even in this amonia case, run-time may be different in the heat of July or rain etc .
Before TFP, I thought: "best to circulate during the sunlight hours because being stagnant in the sunlight & hottest part of the day is not ideal". But I read diffently here on TFP- again, circumstances vary.
I've learned that the sunlight will be helping break down CC ( & unfortunatley removing FC- I think), so how important is circulation beyond circulating chemicals? For sure it is w debris removal?
Should I continue the 2:30am-9:45am Off time, or alter it either way?
Thanks

 

[frustratedpoolmom]

I would tend to agree with you, but I've been known to be wrong before

I would concur the 24/7 is usually in the case of algae issues, not sure about ammonia cases.

I would also think circulating during the day is good, because of FC 'dead zones' from sunlight, not real sure on this one. I've always overlooked this issue because I have a 2 speed pump which I run on low 24/7. So I'll be curious to see what the Guru's say....

 

[JasonLion]

I would go ahead and reduce your pump run time to it's "normal" setting. Algae is different than ammonia. The reaction is now running so slowly, that needing to keep everything mixed all the time is not as important as it was at the start.

The only crucial rule for day to day pump run time is to run the pump for a little while after adding chemicals. Beyond that, there are lots of different reasons for different arraignments of pump run time, all of which are valid, yet many of them conflict with each other, and none are consistently important enough to really decide the issue for everyone. You need to decide which factors matter to you.

Running during the day is better if you have a SWG or automatic chlorine feeder, doesn't matter so much otherwise. Running at night is cheaper if you have time of day electric rates. Running for shorter periods at several different times of day (for the same total time) is good if your timer allows it. Many people like to have the pump running just before and while they are swimming. If you have solar heat you need the pump running while the sun is high in the sky. If you are using solar panels for cooling you need the pump running late at night. And so on and so forth.

 

[Johnny B]

4/22/09
7:15pm, 17.5 hours since added bleach
pH 7.2
FC 7 so added 2 gallons 2 quarts or 3.4 (96 oz) jugs
CC 1.5
Pump was off most of the day, then started pump at 5:00pm

4/23/09
7:15pm, 24 hours since added bleach
pH 7.2
FC 7.5 so added 2 gallons 1 quart 3 cups or 3.2 (96 oz) jugs
CC 1
Pump was On 4 hours today, then started pump at 6:00pm.

Yawn

As usuual, these moderators are full of great information- thanks.
I run the pump 1 hr prior to testing. Is this unnecessary? I guess so since I haven't read this on PSchool & I am reading that others are testing during the winter when pumps may be off?

 

[frustratedpoolmom]

Yes, run the pump 1 hour before testing.

 

[Johnny B]

ding ding ding ding ding
4/24/09
7:15pm, 24 hours since added bleach
pH shy of 7.2, more shy than prior days
FC 7
CC 0.5
Pump was On 4 hours today, then started pump at 6:00pm; will turn Off after 4 hours, for 8 hrs total. The nights remain cool but just today the days begin to be in the 80's

I assume my shocking is over since the CC is < 1?
Tonight I add no bleach since the FC is in Normal 3-7 range?
Hereafter I daily check the pH, FC & CC? Keep the FC in my 3-7 range, my Target FC is 7? If CC goes > 1 then resume shocking w a target if 15?

My pH is out of ideal range, do I work on that now?

On 4/19/09, 5 days ago, test results were:
TA 110 (TA was 190 one week prior).
CH 350 (CH was 360 one week prior).
CYA 40 (CYA was 40-50 one week prior).

Reccommended levels:
Plaster with Bleach
FC 3-7
pH 7.5-7.8
TA 70-90
CH 250-350
CYA 30-50

When do you suggest I test TA, CYA, & CH again? I read "weekly or as needed" yet I see that many here test far less frequently than weekly.

Thanks

 

[frustratedpoolmom]

Yeah! I've been waiting and waiting and waiting...

Okay, tomorrow morning test again first thing. If you lose more than 1ppm of FC, then you are not done shocking. If the FC level holds at 7, then you are golden!

Anytime you like you can raise the PH simply by aeration. If you point your return upwards towards the surface so that it creates bubbles, or if you have a fountain or some other method to great bubbles breaking the surface, this will cause the PH to rise without needing to add chemicals. Adding chemicals to raise PH will also raise your TA, and you don't need to raise your TA.

You can read about the relationship of PH and TA in pool school...to raise PH without affecting the TA you need to aerate. IF you need more help on that part, let me know.

I don't test my TA weekly, it's been pretty stable for the last 2 years. When I first started testing I did test it weekly, if nothing else than for test practice ...

I only test CYA monthly or more frequently if I'm adjusting it.

I test my PH daily/every other day, and I test my FC daily with the OTO. If it looks low, I test with the FAS-DPD because I have a hard time with the color comparator on the OTO. That way I know for sure what it is.

If you do decide to aerate to raise the PH, you will need to check the PH more often, especially depending on the source of aeration. If you have a lot of aeration the PH will rise more rapidly than say, if you just pointed the return up. IF you do a search on the forum you can see lots of threads where people created homemade aeration fountains, etc...

This is great Johnny! Good job!

 

[JasonLion]

Yea! Shocking is nearly over!

After shocking is over, on the every day chlorine test you can use the simpler OTO test, drops turn the sample different shades of yellow which are compared to a color standard. It takes a little practice to get the colors reliably, so I would do both chlorine tests for a while till you get used to it.

When shocking is completely over, you should raise PH up to around 7.5. Either aeration or borax.

All of your other levels are acceptable.

 

[frustratedpoolmom]

Yea! Shocking is nearly over!

After shocking is over, on the every day chlorine test you can use the simpler OTO test, drops turn the sample different shades of yellow which are compared to a color standard. It takes a little practice to get the colors reliably, so I would do both chlorine tests for a while till you get used to it.

When shocking is completely over, you should raise PH up to around 7.5. Either aeration or borax.

All of your other levels are acceptable.

It's been 2 years and I still can't tell 2 from 5.

 

[Johnny B]

Thanks fror your help through all this.
I'm tempted to use the borax since the 2 pumps at 5 amps each running 24/7 for > 2 days was kind of a PITA.

Am I correct, using the calc, I would simply:
add 70oz by weight or 68oz by volume of borax?
Add NO muriatic acid?

Waterbear's article
so-you-want-to-add-borates-to-your-pool-why-and-how-t4921.html

seemed far more in depth (& adding acid) than what the calc says.
That article also mentioned several advantages of the borax (algaecide, sparkle, etc)


If you prefer I use aeration I will, dumping some powder just seems easier. Don't think my returns will point up- but if so I'll do that method for sure. The pumps aren't that difficult & perhaps it will take less time now?

I'll adjust pH AFTER I'm done shocking.

Thanks once again