Testing reliability and record keeping for builder

[Slm3rob]

My pool builder is requiring weekly testing by a 'professional', such as Leslie's. This is due to ongoing issues with my plaster and what the plaster and manufacturer of the plaster say are imbalances in chemicals. The pool was no drain Acid washed a month ago. Plasterer wants me to keep the PH at 7.2 which is impossible. We have unplugged the SWG (too cold anyway) because plaster says the salt cell is causing the issues. He keeps changing his mind as to what the issue is. My plaster is rough now, unfortunately. I am also still adding acid at about the same rate as I was before with the SWG on.

I have been having it tested but my numbers and pool store numbers are not the same ...I had it tested at Leslie's yesterday (drop tests) and then another place today that uses a fancy electronic device. I was more curious than anything to see how it came out. My tests at home today and yesterday were pretty consistent with each other but inconsistent with the stores. I realize that the stores are unreliable, but it's what the builder is requiring me to do. I'll post my results and both pool stores below.

Here is my question, with numbers different from two separate places and my numbers not counting, according to the builder, how can I make my case? Plaster and manufacturer say my PH is too high. I am seeing what appears to be the start of calcium nodules on the sides and bottom of the pool...

I just added CYA starting Monday night so I didn't test for it today as it wasn't all dissolved yet.

my numbers today and. Did not add any acid after Leslie's tested it.
FC:4.5
CC:.5
PH:7.4
CH 275 (this has risen since the acid bath -it was 225. We have had rain)
TA: 100

Leslies - yesterday -drop test. They did the quick chlorine test like the daily one in the TF-100 so I don't know how he got an accurate number.
TC:4
PH: 7.6
CH: 250
TA: 120

Fancy Pool Store : today
FC: 3.7
TC: 3.7
PH: 7.7
CH: 301
TA: 82
CYA: 25

 

[Texas Splash]

We have unplugged the SWG (too cold anyway) because plaster says the salt cell is causing the issues. He keeps changing his mind as to what the issue is.

You seem to know now that neither the builder nor the pool stores seem to have a handle on things - but you do. We see these disparities all the time.

Curious, did the no-drain wash meet your expectations? You mention the shell is still rough. I'm confused about your builder's comments towards the SWG and it's contribution to scale or damage to plaster. It's the combination of hard water (CH), an elevated pH and TA that will contribute to scale. Salt is insignificant at best, although SWG's can be known to cause aeration which in-turn can drive-up pH - one of your largest contributors to an elevated CSI and scale. Remember your waterfall (when running) can also contribute to a rising pH. Keeping your pH and TA on the lower end of the scale will help drive-down your CSI number (refer to the Poolmath Calculator) which, with consistent brushing, might help to remove some of the roughness on the pool shell if it is indeed scale and not something else.

I've known others in your situation who get the weekly-bi-weekly store test for their builder warranty, but rely primarily on their own testing and adjust levels accordingly. You might be in the same position. At some point, we may want to refer your situation to one of our plaster experts who are in the industry and can provide some deeper insight into your situation.

 

[riley00dog]

We are about to build and I'm going to be in the same position. We need regularly pool store records for warranty purposes. From what I can tell these results won't be accurate. On top of that the pool builders recommended levels seem quite different to those I'm seeing here. Our ph must be kept around 7.2 and fc 2-3ppm. Then they contradict themselves on the required ch level. I honestly have no idea how I'm going to deal with this. I guess I will have to pool store test for warranty and adjust afterwards. Just seems like a lot of messing around on a regular basis. I'm going to try talking to my pb about how I intend to care for my pool and keep detailed records and hopefully we can come to an agreement. I feel for you. It's a confusing and frustrating situation to be in.

 

[Slm3rob]

You won't have a problem with the FC. Keeping the PH that low is almost impossible. What the pool builder says, the plasterer says and what the plaster manufacturer says are different. They all blame one another and and me and keep changing their story. Plasterer told me at first it was salt deposits in my pool. I almost laughed outloud and told him this wasn't the Dead Sea! (I didn't actually say that). He then came back and told me calcium deposits but is was my fault.

Get in writing what they want you to do. I do think my situation is not normal. By the way we used Luna Quartz (wet edge is the manufacturer) although smooth and beautiful, I would not recommend it. The builder told us they had 5 pools plastered around the same time as ours with issues. You'd think they would realize it's not the care of the pool, it's the product and application.

I'm just trying to get confirmation numbers so they quit blaming me for the problem.

Youll have a beautiful pool I'm sure!

 

[Jimrahbe]

Rob,

Here is some good info on Calcium Nodules.... See this thread... Calcium Nodules in pools.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Slm3rob]

You seem to know now that neither the builder nor the pool stores seem to have a handle on things - but you do. We see these disparities all the time.

Curious, did the no-drain wash meet your expectations? You mention the shell is still rough. I'm confused about your builder's comments towards the SWG and it's contribution to scale or damage to plaster. It's the combination of hard water (CH), an elevated pH and TA that will contribute to scale. Salt is insignificant at best, although SWG's can be known to cause aeration which in-turn can drive-up pH - one of your largest contributors to an elevated CSI and scale. Remember your waterfall (when running) can also contribute to a rising pH. Keeping your pH and TA on the lower end of the scale will help drive-down your CSI number (refer to the Poolmath Calculator) which, with consistent brushing, might help to remove some of the roughness on the pool shell if it is indeed scale and not something else.

I've known others in your situation who get the weekly-bi-weekly store test for their builder warranty, but rely primarily on their own testing and adjust levels accordingly. You might be in the same position. At some point, we may want to refer your situation to one of our plaster experts who are in the industry and can provide some deeper insight into your situation.

Hi Pat,

The first time I took my water to the pool store a month or so ago, I almost laughed out loud! They were doing the same thing I was doing at home only very quickly. They don't even use the more accurate chlorine test. The fancy store... well, the plasterer wanted me to take it there. The pool builder didn't care. I was curious to see how close the two stores were to each other's numbers. I'm thinking I will keep doing this to show the builder how inconsistent the two places are in measuring things...

The no drain acid acid wash was followed by power washing and some sanding. The acid wash revealed many, many more white spots on the bottom of the pool. The roughness is from the acid wash. It's a Quartz pool and we were going for a smooth surface. I'm not a big fan of pebble surfaces. So basically after 20 (yes, 20) gallons of acid in the pool for four days, the film or scale was greatly removed, the calcium deposits not as much and enough plaster to expose the tiny pebbles in the Quartz to make the surface rougher than a Quartz pool should be. Some of the smaller calcium deposits were gone after the acid wash but it took power washing and sanding to get the major portion of the rest off. Plasterer said they sanded to get the surface smoother...they only sanded where the calcium deposits were still visible, so I'm not buying that.

So aesthetically the surface looks better, in some ways, but it feels like a pebble surface now. The pool is just a little over a year old and we starting seeing issues last March or April. When the Plasterer said the SWG was the issue. I'm thinking he was meaning that it causes the PH to rise, however, I'm still adding acid at the same rate I was before and it's cold out and the SWG is off. I think he was fishing for an answer I would accept. We run the waterfall sparingly ... I've used it a couple of times to lower the TA to help try to stabilize the PH - it helped a little, gave me an extra day before I had to add acid.

My fill water CH is 100 and I've had that confirmed by the pool store and the builders pool guy. I don't think it's the fill water. We had a good amount of rain last winter/spring and the CH never went down...just kept rising. After Harvey (30 inches) it went from 375 or so to maybe 250. Then it went back up without me adding anything. Builders pool guy said that was highly unusual that I should have to add calcium...I've never added calcium, yet, it keeps rising. It's rising now... started at 225 when the builders guy added some to the new water. We have had rain in the past month... all the readings above are higher than that.. no added calcium. And fill water was turned off until yesterday when I had to add a little water.

I've been in touch with Onbalance over the past 6 months and they have helped a lot. I know it's not the SWG. I'm adding acid every 3-4 days.

I feel like I understand the chemistry side of it, I just want to make sure they are going to accept that it's not out of balance water when I show them the pool store numbers. I have followed pool math, adjusting to make sure the csi is good. It has consistently been between -.01 to +.03.

Sorry so long... Linda

- - - Updated - - -

Rob,

Here is some good info on Calcium Nodules.... See this thread... Calcium Nodules in pools.

Thanks,

Jim R.

Hi Jim,

Thanks! I have read that post about 10 times and have been in touch with Onbalance. I know this will get resolved, the process is just agonizing... even if what they are calling scale in the pool is because of bad chemistry on my part, the calcium nodules are not. Really the calcium has been my bigger concern.

Linda

 

[needsajet]

I agree with the post above to get their instructions in writing. I would show them instructions from the National Plasterers Council (or the manufacturer if different), and ask why their instructions are different, especially such low pH and the impossibility of keeping a pool at a single pH number. That is, what is the range?
https://c.ymcdn.com/sites/npconline.site-ym.com/resource/resmgr/Docs/startup-card-current-rev3_wa.pdf

Aside from that, I would use 30 ppm CYA and 3 ppm FC to eliminate any chlorine effect on your position with the builder.

An option is to correct your pH to 7.2 and take that sample to the pool store. I'm guessing they want monthly, so at least it's not too hard to achieve.

But I would try very hard to get a range agreed to, consistent with the NPC document.

Sadly, it sounds like your builder and plasterer are both planning to use water chemistry to squeeze out of their responsibility, which happens a lot.